Corona Renderer Forum

General Category => General CG discussion => Topic started by: arqrenderz on 2016-05-04, 00:35:13

Title: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: arqrenderz on 2016-05-04, 00:35:13
Another one GPU render here https://www.facebook.com/groups/FStormGroup/
Its interesting, the development ist going fast, like those corona dailys :)
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-05-04, 11:39:26
Quote
corona bitmap texture conversion

:- D

But yes, we did. They had some nice, smart features from get-on, such as natural glare.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-05-04, 11:44:27
These guy(s), do the same mistake (Octane devs and users do it too) in defending their speed in comparison to Vray/Corona, by using the argument, that it would be comparable when Vray/Corona, disabled their secondary GI kernels.

Well but...too bad, that's exactly what makes them fast. These GPU-raytracers are almost never faster in actual GI-heavy (like interior) scenes from what I've seen (applies to all of them, except for Redshift).

Redshift devs got it. You can use GPUs as fast as you can, unbiased pathtracing alone is not fast. Unless we talk car renders, HDRi-lit close-ups of decoration or some other simplicity.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: burnin on 2016-05-04, 12:24:47
Not really on topic title but since accelerating is in question, Toshiya Hachisuka' Lab (http://www.ci.i.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~hachisuka/) works on rendering with SPPM (also on GPU) looks very tempting.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-29, 16:39:53
Otoy applied to New Zealand Court against FStormRender.
They claim Andrey Kozlov uses OctaneRender source code and copy the stuff.

Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2016-07-29, 17:02:17
...the hell is that? :O

Did you print a screenshot on paper, then scan it, then print it again, and scan it again, and repeated that 50 times, and then posted it here? O_o
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-29, 17:10:03
aahahahaha :) of course no :) ı am copying from fstorm facebook page :) this is really confidental
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2016-07-29, 17:33:04
I can't see anything like that on Fstorm facebook page
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: maru on 2016-07-29, 17:34:45
I don't know where this info is coming from, but I also heard about a lawsuit. Let's hold on with the gossips and wait for some official message.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-29, 17:37:52
https://m.otoy.com/OTOYvKozlovPinkSoft-PublicNoticeofInjunctiveRelief.pdf
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: maru on 2016-07-29, 17:53:55
Ok. Great. Bu is this publicly available? Where did you find that link?
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Javadevil on 2016-07-30, 00:01:29
These guy(s), do the same mistake (Octane devs and users do it too) in defending their speed in comparison to Vray/Corona, by using the argument, that it would be comparable when Vray/Corona, disabled their secondary GI kernels.

Well but...too bad, that's exactly what makes them fast. These GPU-raytracers are almost never faster in actual GI-heavy (like interior) scenes from what I've seen (applies to all of them, except for Redshift).

Redshift devs got it. You can use GPUs as fast as you can, unbiased pathtracing alone is not fast. Unless we talk car renders, HDRi-lit close-ups of decoration or some other simplicity.

I half agree, Redshift I have tried to get clean results for internal renders using the GPU GI caching interpolated GI and without high settings I can't get rid of the splotches, its like going back to Mental ray. So I tried there Path tracer and its slow as any GPU path tracer.
However Fstorm, its sampling methods are pretty damn quick :) and its by far the fastest GPU render I have used even for internals.
Now if Ondra put what he learnt with his Herpy derpy GI cache and made that for GPU, if at all possible, that would be very interesting, Its the cleanest GI cache thing I have ever used.

Things I like about Fstorm:
Glare like you mentioned is beautifully done, the quality and believability is great.
I like the Sun Sky system.
Its material is pretty solid, has lots of maps/shaders that are normally missing from a GPU renderer at the start development.
The other thing I like about GPU renderers, is the GPU seems to have a faster development.
Being able to upgrade a GPU or just adding another one into my system for more speed is awesome.

However any real work I do, I do in Corona, but enjoy testing any renderer I can find :) Corona is so reliable and easy to use.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Christa Noel on 2016-07-30, 08:45:35
yes a friend told me about its speed but what a shame if it is true that Fstorm used otoy source code.
it seems many of user here has some experience in GPU rendering. the only GPUrenderer I ever tried is vrayRT.
a litle bit offtopic, have you guys tried firerender which is corona has some contribution in its development?
a lot of GPUrenderer mainly optimized for CUDA eventhough some has openCL compatibility but it still too weak against CUDA. and I think firerender will never do optimization for CUDA hardware :) however i'd like to hear your opinion about this firerender guys :)
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-08-03, 12:02:33
http://www.fstormrender.com/Downloads/Andrey_Kozlov_vs_Otoy.pdf
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: sebastian___ on 2016-08-03, 16:12:40
This changes the problem. And yes, I thought it was odd the lower part of the screenshot encircled with the presets, view and render button. I mean that's default from 3ds max. And also the look of the screenshots, like what ? Did it meant to make it more "realistic" ? Like cut from a newspaper ? :)
  "Look, this is serious, we present you these worn documents with 3ds max, recovered from a secret file, from the second world war"
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: TomG on 2016-08-03, 16:18:56
  "Look, this is serious, we present you these worn documents with 3ds max, recovered from a secret file, from the second world war"

Lol! And taken with my secret "camera that looks like a pen" too!
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: sebastian___ on 2016-08-03, 17:03:47
For all I know, there could still be fishy things with Octane guys or FStorm developer, but right now the case seems tilted in the Fstorm favor.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: maru on 2016-08-03, 17:22:51
Looks like one of the sides is bound for an epic fail. We'll see which one.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: DeadClown on 2016-08-03, 18:44:47
Well, it's no news that Otoy likes to sue people that worked for them in the past, for basically the same lame reasons...
I tend to rather believe everyone else than otoy.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ondra on 2016-08-04, 10:52:15
For all I know, there could still be fishy things with Octane guys or FStorm developer, but right now the case seems tilted in the Fstorm favor.
maybe in your mind, but I seriously hope Karba did not submit the document to court as it is (but rather to his lawyer as his materials), it would IMHO not convince a non-expert in the field as the arguments are not well written and thought out.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: burnin on 2016-08-04, 12:58:09
another story with otoy... (http://christopheremoore.net/otoy/)
Was also a member on Refractive Software forums back in the days when it started, after the 'acquisition' i haven't looked back. Never will. O'Toy' does nothing but up the prices and fu+ks the little guy. Their development is similar to that of an assassin, hidden, slow, careful and if failed, blows up.

https://twitter.com/JustinYounger/status/760481513221689344 (https://twitter.com/JustinYounger/status/760481513221689344)

Stay good and well, legionaries.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Christa Noel on 2016-08-05, 04:36:34
another story with otoy... (http://christopheremoore.net/otoy/)
is that true..? WTF?! I cant believe it did happened.. I'm so speechless

Stay good and well, legionaries.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: RobSteady on 2016-08-05, 07:46:06
Here's the link to the thread:
http://www.fstormrender.com/forum/forum/off-topic/1703-andrey-kozlov-vs-otoy

Funny to see that Otoy is claiming that the 3ds max Environment Tab belongs to their product - the really have no idea what they're doing.
I don't think it's a good idea to publish everything in a public forum though. Hope this turns out well for Andrey (Karba), he's a good guy.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-08-05, 10:20:28
another story with otoy... (http://christopheremoore.net/otoy/)
is that true..? WTF?! I cant believe it did happened.. I'm so speechless

Stay good and well, legionaries.

Yeah, what the f*ck is this ?!

Btw, what happened to the company founder (Refractive, not Otoy) ?


Regarding F-storm.

What I like:
Karba is fast. You ask him, you get the feature next-day.
They have good material, after it was requested by users. Now they have correct fresnel and even glossiness attentuation towards edges. Very cool.
Cool glare and tonemapping. Good to see this being priority :- )

What is OK.
It's not fast, c'mon, but not slow either. Pretty much like Octane, the interior GI is still slow. Sometimes a user will post "2 minute !!!" render only to be followed that actual, production quality 3k+ interiors are still 1 hour + even with 4x Titans. But Titans are still cheaper and more stackable than CPUs :- )

What I dislike:
Every properietary crap. No support for 3dsMax instances ? SERIOUSLY ?
No normal map support, or any plan to. SERIOUSLY ?!?! Big NO.
No support for 3dsMax physical camera but new F-Storm camera ? Nobody wants no f-storm camera.

So it's pretty damn good in some areas, and pretty bad for any actual stable production on others. Will watch cautiously.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: RobSteady on 2016-08-05, 12:08:42
Have to agree with almost everything, Juraj - GPU rendering seemed so promising at the beginning. But you're very quick back to the ground of reality with more complex interiors taking quite some time even with a serious hardware setup. It's not the holy grail everyone was wating for. Also Corona is getting better each day ;)

Otoy did a great job in screwing Octane completely up; features nobody ever requested, confusing marketing (thinking about the V3 presentation video...omg), wired decisions.
Releasing new versions while breaking stuff that has worked before; the 3ds max plugin is filled with test releases and unstable versions.
They have hired some good guys at the forums though, professionally playing along customers, delaying promised updates/features - they're doing a remarkable job with this.
I think GPU rendering could have been much further if developed the right way...

You are also right about the cons for FStorm but please consider that it's a very young engine; first release was only six months ago and it's still in alpha stage. So hopefully all this will be added at some point.
Adaptive sampling is great feature though, cutting down render times quite a bit. I hope Andrey will add an integrated noise reduction solution one day - assuming everything works out good for him with the lawsuit.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: DeadClown on 2016-08-05, 12:43:37
What I dislike:
Every properietary crap. No support for 3dsMax instances ? SERIOUSLY ?
No normal map support, or any plan to. SERIOUSLY ?!?! Big NO.
No support for 3dsMax physical camera but new F-Storm camera ? Nobody wants no f-storm camera.

So it's pretty damn good in some areas, and pretty bad for any actual stable production on others. Will watch cautiously.
When I realize there is no max maps support (procedurals, bitmaptexture etc) it's usually the last time I try the renderer. It's a no-go for production for me and at this point I can only regard it as a (o)toy.
No normal map support is ridiculous though, can't imagine he's not planning to implement it.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ryuu on 2016-08-05, 12:52:06
I must admit that I never really understood these religious CPU vs GPU debates. As a hardware designer, I am looking forward to the upcoming Xeons combined with FPGAs for the ability to design custom hardware :)

But to be serious, I think it would be better for everyone to combine the best of both worlds. Use CPU for more complex tasks and then use GPU for stuff like postprocessing, where you apply a relatively simple operation to lots of data.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-08-05, 13:13:31
People who do those cpu vs gpu wars often don't understand quite well what they are actually debating, it's just another variation of being part of cool camp. But 'religious' is overstatement, have a look at PC vs Console, nVidia vs AMD type of debates :- ) Those are beyond any kind of salvation.

Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Christa Noel on 2016-08-06, 03:29:40
c'mon guys, Fstorm render is now still a cute baby, but I heard it developed so fast then I'm sure it will become a beast in the future not just a toy.
But to be serious, I think it would be better for everyone to combine the best of both worlds. Use CPU for more complex tasks and then use GPU for stuff like postprocessing, where you apply a relatively simple operation to lots of data.
hi Ryuu, Can you make hardware acceleration for corona denoising just like the "other" do? 4k render will be happy for this acceleration (and especially me who don't have hi-end cpu). or I didn't realize it is already use GPU acceleration...?
cheers :D
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Javadevil on 2016-08-06, 04:55:46

is that true..? WTF?! I cant believe it did happened.. I'm so speechless

Stay good and well, legionaries.


Yeah, what the f*ck is this ?!

Btw, what happened to the company founder (Refractive, not Otoy) ?

Regarding F-storm.

What I dislike:
Every properietary crap. No support for 3dsMax instances ? SERIOUSLY ?
No normal map support, or any plan to. SERIOUSLY ?!?! Big NO.


Instancing works, you have to select it in the fstorm properties of the instance to work.
So things like Forrest pro work.

Things I agree with
No Normal map support, that sucks
Fstorm Camera, yeah he should support Physical camera

With enough convincing I'm sure he'll put them in :)

I'll do some more testing but I'm pretty sure I've had decent results within 2to3hrs on one GTX 970 at 3k.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: sebastian___ on 2016-08-06, 09:16:20
But to be serious, I think it would be better for everyone to combine the best of both worlds. Use CPU for more complex tasks and then use GPU for stuff like postprocessing, where you apply a relatively simple operation to lots of data.

Does Corona use gpu's at all ?
I think it's such a waste to have powerful gpu's in computer and to not use them at all.
But I understand the argument that you lose the flexibility with GPU and CPU is best used for calculating light transport and complex shaders and all.
But GPU not even used for post processing and denoising ? Sure a gpu can be used efficiently to calculate glare, blurs and post process ? And maybe denoising. Either alone or in combination with the CPU for an even faster speed. Or maybe calculating post processing in parallel with the CPU ? so you don't have to wait a few more seconds for post processing after the render is finished.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: RobSteady on 2016-08-06, 11:04:04
Altus Denoiser makes use of GPU's.
https://www.innobright.com/2016/02/29/innobright-altus-1-3-now-available/
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ondra on 2016-08-06, 11:30:46
I think it's such a waste to have powerful gpu's in computer and to not use them at all.
It is also waste not to use better sampling techniques, not having optimized SSS/skin/hair shader, not having multilight, etc... it is all about priorities ;)
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Ryuu on 2016-08-08, 10:47:17
hi Ryuu, Can you make hardware acceleration for corona denoising...

I definitely can, but the key questions are:


Besides those questions, there is another issue with the fact that bloom&glare + denoising now take only a small fraction of the whole rendering time. Imagine you have a 30 minute render, where the denoising takes only the last 2 minutes. Even if we optimize the denoising infinitely (so that it is calculated in zero time), it will actually result in a 28 minute total render time. Amdahl's law is a bitch :)

Does Corona use gpu's at all ?

Not at this moment. The system definitely uses GPU for displaying the VFB, but that is outside of Corona.

I think it's such a waste to have powerful gpu's in computer and to not use them at all.

I definitely feel your pain. I always buy the high end GPUs + CPUs in the hopes that I will have time to play with some interesting optimizations, only to watch them gather dust for a few years before buying new ones :)

Or maybe calculating post processing in parallel with the CPU ? so you don't have to wait a few more seconds for post processing after the render is finished.

I don't think this is doable. To be able to calculate the post processing effects, you already need to have the whole rendered image. So even when using GPU, you can start the post processing only after the CPU has finished rendering (+ some additional time to transfer data from CPU to GPU). It is certainly possible to have GPU compute post processing on one frame and have the CPU start rendering the next frame in parallel, but that would be a nightmare to implement & debug + it would probably consume significantly more memory.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-08-08, 11:14:26

Instancing works, you have to select it in the fstorm properties of the instance to work.


So exactly what I said, it doesn't support the native instancing directly ;- ). In all the years of Vray usage, I almost never clicked on the VrayProperties of object. I can't imagine having the need to do so on top.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Christa Noel on 2016-08-08, 14:04:23
hi Ryuu, Can you make hardware acceleration for corona denoising...

I definitely can, but the key questions are:

  • How long would it take to implement?
  • How much more time would it take to actually achieve any significant speedup?
  • How much of a speedup can we hope to achieve anyway?

Besides those questions, there is another issue with the fact that bloom&glare + denoising now take only a small fraction of the whole rendering time. Imagine you have a 30 minute render, where the denoising takes only the last 2 minutes. Even if we optimize the denoising infinitely (so that it is calculated in zero time), it will actually result in a 28 minute total render time. Amdahl's law is a bitch :)

that questions kicks my smaller-brain enough, I have no any idea about that :) people here are always dreaming until zero rendertime comes true :D
btw, the corona trello roadmap which contains kickass features I loved is still in hi priority.. keep rocking ryuu! :D
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: sebastian___ on 2016-08-08, 15:05:55
Or maybe calculating post processing in parallel with the CPU ? so you don't have to wait a few more seconds for post processing after the render is finished.

I don't think this is doable. To be able to calculate the post processing effects, you already need to have the whole rendered image.

I meant in parallel like octane calculates glare and other things during rendering and not at the end.
I just tested FStorm to compare glare and to see if it has the lens distortion capability of Octane and it looks like Octane is much better in this regard. It seems that at least these parts were not programmed by the FStorm developer in Octane.

Compared to I think every other renderer, glare speed and looks in octane is amazing. I don't know how they did it. While changing the glare settings during rendering it's so fast it seems like adjusting a layer in photoshop. An already rendered layer. While in FStorm is much slower.

I remember talks in the past on Adobe forum and how some would say GPU's are for gaming and there's no mixing that with a 2d editor, and then Adobe added GPU support to Premiere, and it made such a huge difference. Not only many effects like color correction and blurs become real-time, but you were able to playback in real-time (24 fps) not just one layer of full hd movie, but several. And with added gaussian blur and color correction on top, without needing to render first.
  I used to think that the reason a program like Premiere can't playback high res movies in realtime because a spinning hdd was not fast enough for that, to move all that data. Seems not.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-08-09, 11:37:59
It began to be interesting.I couldn't  believe when I saw this game video :) I thought it was real...




Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-08-09, 14:55:07
SW:B maps make me cry evertim.

Such quality... I love where are in real-time. Exciting times.
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: nkilar on 2016-08-09, 15:09:06
In all honesty, and as stupid as this may sound, I am holding off investing into anything OTOY related because of crap like this. Voting with my wallet because my livelihood doesn't depend on it.

To be perfectly frank, the C4D Octane integration seems exemplary, really really good but since I can afford to stay on the CPU I will wait for the dust to settle and see how things progress. I do need to reiterate here, Octane C4D seems superbly well done!

Other than that, I think GPUs have a good future ahead of them, the generational leaps we are making so far are, as always, impressive!
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-08-09, 15:22:23
SW:B maps make me cry evertim.

Such quality... I love where are in real-time. Exciting times.

 juraj you have experience with realtime.Can you do such thing with bake or using unreal engine would it take a lot of time ?


Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: Juraj Talcik on 2016-08-09, 15:38:36
Yeah, that can definitely be done in Unreal 4. Frostbite engine isn't probably too different, although they have bigger graphic research team, similar to Crytek's one. Check out their Siggraph and GDC papers on Frostbite 3 PBR, it's incredible where their engine is graphically and the amount of work they put into it.

I am pretty sure they use Enlighten GI on all their games ( SW:B, Mirror's Edge2, DG:I,etc..), which while branded as real-time, is still a precomputed bake.

This kind of quality takes incredible amount of time regardless of platform or engine.

Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: nkilar on 2016-08-09, 15:52:27
An interesting link about asset making in SWB ;)

http://www.frostbite.com/2016/03/photogrammetry-and-star-wars-battlefront/
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-08-09, 15:58:28
http://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/articles/give-star-wars-battlefront-a-4k-makeover-with-toddyhancer-mod
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-08-09, 16:02:56
hmm impressive mesh displacement and teselletion tech.really impressive.this video annoyed me :)
Title: Re: Have you seen Fstorm render?
Post by: philippelamoureux on 2016-08-11, 01:12:39
SW:B maps make me cry evertim.

Such quality... I love where are in real-time. Exciting times.

 juraj you have experience with realtime.Can you do such thing with bake or using unreal engine would it take a lot of time ?

SW:B is definitely baked. Maybe enlighten but honestly I don't see the need for it. Everything is static in sw:b, there is no destruction of any kind and no day/night cycle. That's the main reason it looks that good imo... they didn't have to make any compromises.

Toddyhancer even made a grand theft auto 5 visual mod and it looks amazing compared to the vanilla game. http://imgur.com/a/do0On (http://imgur.com/a/do0On)