Corona Renderer Forum

General Category => Porting and API => Topic started by: Ondra on 2013-04-24, 15:15:46

Title: Why is Corona Blender exporter developed by community, not by us
Post by: Ondra on 2013-04-24, 15:15:46
[UPDATE] Since now there is model which may work (community developed exporter + corona standalone), I updated the title - see the discussion in this thread for details

tl;dr: The "Free" licence of Blender forbids me to make top-quality Corona plugin for it. There will not be any Corona for Blender for a long time.

<rant>
Right now, I am deciding which application to implement Corona into next. The implementation will start right now, since there is a guy who will do it as a thesis assignment. We went over the software and decided to do Blender, since we thought it is "free", "open", etc., so it should be simple to integrate into.

We were wrong.

Because entire Blender is covered by GPL licence, it is forbidden to link anything closed-source to it (not just commercial as in "you pay for it", but anything closed-source, which includes "it is free to use, but I won't give you my source code"). Making Corona opensource software (OSS) is out of question for me, I need to make it commercial to be able to fund its future development.


We thought there were some loopholes, but it turns out the "Free" Software Foundation thought about them too and explicitly forbidden them. So, to make a commercial plugin for blender, one has to either do the "exporter + standalone" combo, which I want to stay away from, because it is slow and clumsy, or do even more ridiculous workarounds, which will be as slow and clumsy as exporter version (This is what V-ray is doing). Basically, the plugin for the 3D application would have to be split into two, one OSS and other closed-source, and the two would have to communicate via sockets/files/pipes (which is slow). The sole reason for the split is the licencing issue.

So, Blender has unusable licence. That is fine, any software developer is entitled to the choice of licence. If somebody wants to make a 3D studio legally usable only while not wearing underwear, he should be able to do it. What makes me angry is the whole FREE software ideology/advertisement. FSF goes on and on about "protecting users freedom". Their interpretation is:
- being able to choose from free plugins: freedom
- being able to choose from the same free plugins, plus also commercial plugins: less freedom.
- Forbidding good Corona renderer integration for Blender is freedom. Allowing it would make Blender less free.

I am not saying the OSS concept is wrong. There are other, much better and really free licences, like MIT/Apache/... If Blender would use any of them, we would start Corona for Blender right now. Too bad it uses the GPL bullshit. I feel bad for Blender users, because they will never have any fully-integrated commercial renderer plugin :/.
</rant>


Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: DeadClown on 2013-04-24, 16:04:36
... that really shocks me O_o. I like blender (even if I'm not able to use it) but THIS makes it impossible for me to see it as a real alternative or even an option for my Stuff.

crap.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: patoaltaco on 2013-04-24, 16:12:14
what a pity

This is the point where my path get  different way than corona.

Im training my sefl to migrating to blender... and i will do it in a couple of years no more... (is dificult wiht work)

Blender is growing and growing, and the people ho uses it too.

Maybe the industry monsters will be that, monsters, and if corona want to get there this is the right choise.... i will walk the other.

Anyway i have still time to enjoy it.

Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-04-24, 16:25:28
Maybe the industry monsters will be that, monsters, and if corona want to get there this is the right choise.... i will walk the other.
I dont want for Corona to be neither a copyright nazi monster (typical EULA), nor copyleft nazi monster (GPL). The problem is that the copyright licences actually allow me free development, but copyleft gpl don't.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: NinthJake on 2013-04-24, 16:46:40
Wow, the GPL license is really screwing us over big time. It's a known problem though and Blender Foundation would be more than willing to change it to a better one but unfortunately that would require them to hunt down and get permission from every single person that has ever contributed code to Blender, which is frankly impossible.

It would be absolutely fantastic if there was some sort of loophole that allowed Blender to switch from GPL but it seems like that'll only be a dream. So for now at least, this is directed at the GPL license.
(http://media.tumblr.com/a832a2341b2f82c03a64e7a942f12afc/tumblr_inline_mjiy7lCSjq1qz4rgp.gif)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-04-24, 17:00:30
Nothing better than a licence that screws over the original developers, users, and plugin developers. All while Richard Stallman is sitting in the back, laughing, and eating something from his foot :D
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: lacilaci on 2013-04-25, 07:50:09
Yeah some people got the whole "freedom" concept all wrong... Ubuntu users bitch about the fact that you can run commercial paid software in it although the OS is and always stays free. So some guys actually think that OS sucks cause they have a choice for more products to run in it.

So even though it's sad I wouldn't be surprised if some blender users would actually complain that you can run corona inside it (because corona isn't open source...)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-04-25, 10:29:33
So even though it's sad I wouldn't be surprised if some blender users would actually complain that you can run corona inside it (because corona isn't open source...)
There are actually such users :D

Quote
It's not a limit of the GPL, but a clear limit of commercial software vendors who choose to lock up stuff. They want to play the "we keep everything ourselves" game, and then blame others who choose to be open?

Quote
The good side of GPL - and how it worked for Blender very well - is that it requires to stay entirely "free". That's all.
Once you start polluting that with commercial components, it would end up in no time in a cripple product where users have to pay for every cool and useful module.

Quote
The risk though is what Ton outlined, people start making powerful modules for Blender that you might have to spend perhaps upwards of 100 USD or Euros to get access to

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?285632-Corona-Renderer-Alpha-4-is-released-%28possible-Blender-integration-in-the-future%29&highlight=corona
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: ohsnapitsjoel on 2013-05-31, 22:49:38
Hm, I'm a little confused. I wonder how to OTOY is getting around the GPL restrictions then?  They've been developing (err, "were" developing?) an integrated plugin for Blender for Octane.  I haven't heard any updates on it in a while, so it may have fallen through the cracks, I have no idea.  But they didn't seem to have any problems with licensing, I wonder why?

At any rate, I'd be interested in collaborating on an open-source exporter, even if it's not an integrated plugin.  Exporting to Corona and rendering externally is better than not being able to use it at all! :) 
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-05-31, 23:41:00
It is possible to make commercial plugin for GPL software, I am not saying it is not, its just the speed and quality will be worse and implementation will be much more complicated
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: reny on 2013-07-02, 09:27:51
I think the GPL has one thing servers it's purpose, that it forces heavy integrated parts must be open source.
In doing so it also make sure who ever puts in efforts first can also benefit(expand knowledge) from the updated version with new stuff building into it constantly.
For doing commercial stuff on top of it, sure, many are willing to bite the bullet to export first and then render.
Or, if say corona's python binding or API is flexible enough, people will "donate" 3rd party experimental stuff.
Which means, user either have to compile themselves, or with some python tweaking. It will not come with blender and merge into the trunk.

I think for Corona, even if the goal is not to support blender, a solid python binding will help you propagate to many authoring softwares in a long run.
I don't think many could run their business like Blender Foundation, where it makes people want to support Blender on the side to have a giant PITA.
For near future, if Blender would ever become the "go-to" 3d authoring platform, it would need to re-structure and make a clean cut in both library and architecture.
So that there will be a LGPL side of blender that let you do the integration without worrying about other side that do need GPL libraries.
How? I don't know, they must figure it out, or people would have stuck with doing things in grey area, or do blender in whole or none.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: cecofuli on 2013-08-14, 20:29:34
And, why is Octane Render for Blender (commercial product) released today if Blender is covered by GPL licence? ?? O_O

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2o2zOducc
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-08-14, 20:37:18
as I've said:
It is possible to make commercial plugin for GPL software, I am not saying it is not, its just the speed and quality will be worse and implementation will be much more complicated
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Vulture on 2013-09-11, 19:20:49
You made me sad. Today I find out about Corona Rendere. I found it interesting and it seems to be good alternative for Vray. That sad I won't be able to use it with blender. It is possible to make at least unofficial exporter by me?

Even though I can use 3Ds max I just don't want. I don't know why, but Blender is more userfrendly than Max (i'm using Max in work and sometimes it pissing me off. :) Blender isn't perfect, but it's a Great and Powerful (as Trixie) software.) I don't use Blender for commerical projects - Blender isn't ready for this yet, but its a nice soft for a hobbyists.

I can't stand that the greatest virtue of Blender is it's the biggest flaw.
Good luck and Gz. Corona render is just fabulous. Keep up the good work  :D
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ludvik Koutny on 2013-09-11, 19:54:23
You made me sad. Today I find out about Corona Rendere. I found it interesting and it seems to be good alternative for Vray. That sad I won't be able to use it with blender. It is possible to make at least unofficial exporter by me?

Even though I can use 3Ds max I just don't want. I don't know why, but Blender is more userfrendly than Max (i'm using Max in work and sometimes it pissing me off. :) Blender isn't perfect, but it's a Great and Powerful (as Trixie) software.) I don't use Blender for commerical projects - Blender isn't ready for this yet, but its a nice soft for a hobbyists.

I can't stand that the greatest virtue of Blender is it's the biggest flaw.
Good luck and Gz. Corona render is just fabulous. Keep up the good work  :D

There is Corona standalone available as well as API. Standalone version should be significantly improved in upcoming public build. By the way you are already 3rd person with intention of doing some exporter, one simple exporter is already done by Joel Daniels. Maybe all of you guys could join together to create some versatile exporter for blender. :)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-09-11, 20:05:08
there are about 5 people that started an exporter at some point in the past ;)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2013-09-30, 14:43:00
kinda relevant :D

(http://www.wtfpl.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/wtfpl-strip.jpg)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: afecelis on 2015-11-20, 19:18:39
And, why is Octane Render for Blender (commercial product) released today if Blender is covered by GPL licence? ?? O_O

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2o2zOducc

Indeed, and Indigo, and Thea, and Vray. It's impossible to get commercial-quality stuff into Blender, huh?
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: burnin on 2015-11-21, 16:23:57
Get the facts straight.
Blender for Octane is GPL... Octane Stand Alone is commercial product
Blender for VRay is GPL... VRay Stand Alone is commercial product.
Blender is GPL... Indigo, Thea, PRMan, Maxwell... are supported via exporters (python code, GPL). As Corona is!
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: MannaTheBerserk on 2017-11-30, 14:29:54
And, why is Octane Render for Blender (commercial product) released today if Blender is covered by GPL licence? ?? O_O

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2o2zOducc

Indeed, and Indigo, and Thea, and Vray. It's impossible to get commercial-quality stuff into Blender, huh?

V-Ray for Blender does not give you access to RT, because of the GPL license. So you get a watered down version of VRay plugin compared to the other software.
Octane plugin is open source, that's why you get it working, but Octane Standalone, which is of course independent from your software, is not. That's why you get the plugin working (by the way, it doesn't work if you don't have the standalone).

I am pretty sure that the others, Indigo and Thea, have similar properties (either the plugin is open source, or something combined like Octane).

So there you have it.

Blender GPL license is your handbrake here.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: christo9273 on 2018-01-16, 03:55:48
Ok i'm gonna buy/subscribe windows 10, and 3dsmax 2017 for all my ten machines, or perhaps exchanging them for macs, and I'll buy corona after if I have something left. Thank you!
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: beep on 2018-11-14, 22:51:15
Octane plugin is open source, that's why you get it working, but Octane Standalone, which is of course independent from your software, is not. That's why you get the plugin working (by the way, it doesn't work if you don't have the standalone).

I am pretty sure that the others, Indigo and Thea, have similar properties (either the plugin is open source, or something combined like Octane).

So there you have it.

Blender GPL license is your handbrake here.

Well, the Otoy's Blender version is open source. The Octane engine is not Open Source as it is sold as separate Server application that connects to that special version of Blender.
So there is possibility to use a commercial render engine in Blender that works as a local server application that sends back and forth the information to Blender.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Naxos on 2019-04-20, 11:35:05
Hello there,

I read the reasons why Corona would not be available for Blender, and i can understand those ones.

This morning though i've found infos about BoxCutter, a Blender plugin that is not free.
So maybe the new Blender's policy could allow 3rd party plugins to be paid ones ?
Maybe you do need to propose a free version that could be very simple, and a pay version with all advanced stuff in it ?

Pleas have a look at boxCutter for Blender 2.8, and if there is any chance to get Corona renderer for Blender, i'll trun myself from 3dsmax to Blender, without any second doubd.

Regards.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Naxos on 2019-04-20, 11:37:55
Here you can see that some of the licenses are not free...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6im7z6olbmzne2r/boxCutter.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6im7z6olbmzne2r/boxCutter.png?dl=0)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Naxos on 2019-04-20, 11:41:13
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Ondra on 2019-04-20, 13:41:37
The licensing limitation is usually circumvented by splitting the plugin into the free and commercial part. The free part just by itself is useless, and need the commercial part.

THat being said, the blender community is willing to develop the free part, so we are happy to supply the commercial part, to have blender rendering solution in form of exporter + standalone.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Sanekum on 2019-04-20, 15:17:22
The licensing limitation is usually circumvented by splitting the plugin into the free and commercial part. The free part just by itself is useless, and need the commercial part.

THat being said, the blender community is willing to develop the free part, so we are happy to supply the commercial part, to have blender rendering solution in form of exporter + standalone.

For now Blender+Standalone 3 is in very good shape thanks to Corona team and  blanchg
Distance Map is not functuonal this is sad and couple other bugs

For the future we pray for the 2.80 and IPR render (and rewritten Standlaone I guess)
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: Naxos on 2019-04-20, 18:23:33
Exporte and standalone is a good start, but IR and materials within the host tool is a must...
I'll wait.
Title: Re: Why there won't be Corona for Blender...
Post by: IvanMax on 2019-04-22, 16:17:03
But what about cloud rendering , eg the code stays on corona side and blender guys just seting up their scenes. And of course it will cost money but it is what you get from choosing opensource application.