Corona Renderer Forum

General Category => Gallery => Work in Progress/Tests => Topic started by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-06-11, 22:05:57

Title: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-06-11, 22:05:57
My WIP thread: Below is always my recent Imagery/Theory/Findings/Questions :- )

Feel free to ask anything concerning my imagery/workflow. I don't keep any secrets and I am very happy to answer everything (almost, don't ask how much I price my work, the answer is as muc has possible ;- ) ). It's choleric trait, but I feel real good if I am useful.

Please don't ask me to share my scenes, I think I will eventually do so, but I am not comfortable doing that currently in any form. I share 3D models though ! For free. Just check my Behance album, I know it's updated seldomly, too little time...too many things to do.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=64887;image)

https://www.behance.net/gallery/52702479/NIVY-Restaurant
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: yagi on 2013-06-12, 08:03:38
awesome! can you please share your metal material settings with us via jpgs? thanks
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-06-12, 12:09:06
I'll start by small SMEG oven :- D Little thing I had to make, since my traditional Miele combo wasn't hip enough. But this design is pretty cool too, minimal, and not so hipster retro-ish like some usual Smeg stuff.  I like how fast I can get very correct result using path tracing and studio HDRi in progressive render. It's instant visual feedback, and that makes setting up materials very fast.
Rendered using Alpha5 RC8, so far so good, haven't tested anything yet much.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2867/9019403938_c95c597c4e_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-06-16, 18:21:13
awesome! can you please share your metal material settings with us via jpgs? thanks



Dark diffuse with slight microstripes; Tiles 2048px jpeg

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/9057318147_fde844f96b_o.jpg)

Specular with slight microstripes; Tiles 2048px jpeg; For clean reflection, just use single color ;- )

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7337/9057317611_d958ac7b69_o.jpg)


Material Settings : Fresnel IOR:40, Reflection: Texture, or color, Anisotrophy:0,4 (weak), rotation 90, Glossiness: 0,9 (just experimental)

Nothing else :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-06-16, 18:27:58
With little time, we had to create Bonaldo Tufty-time sofa in cloth finish. It's kind of hard, even for Marvelous, but I am quite happy with result like this. Courtesy to Veronika

Already playing with Alpha5. Funny my scene didn't render correctly, so I opted for merging into new scene, and than it rendered correctly again. Filtering Yes or No still cause me some confusion, so at the moment, all maps are unfiltered at 0.1 except for bump which is filtered at 0.1 on summed area.

I guess also bidirectional isn't suitable for this type of scene ? It seems impressively noisy compared to simple path tracing, so I guess it benefits only for much complicated lightning ? Little light sources and caustics,etc.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/9057387497_161f7eb163_o.jpg)

Still incredibly happy for this renderer.

EDIT:

Final version :

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)

(Edit: Full project can be seen here:  http://talcikdemovicova.com/classic-apartment-by-jessica-vedel/ )
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: stevenchman on 2013-07-04, 13:11:22
Is this the raw render Juraj?  Very nice!
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-07-04, 17:45:31
No, I apply curves and some small stuff within MagicBullet.

The project is almost complete, I'll publish it soon :- )

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/965964_389301724507641_1660633787_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-07-05, 00:32:49
Very nice. Did you added lil bit of transculency (cloth material) ?
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-07-05, 01:43:21
No, only the curtains have that. Interesting idea though, maybe something I can experiment though. But I deleted the underneath layer...
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: yagi on 2013-07-05, 12:04:11
photo! photo!! photo!!! grrrr! :p
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Sovcat on 2013-08-21, 21:56:30
Hehe hey Juraj! It's your biggest fan Tyronne! lol. Glad to see you on the forum!
Fantastic work as usual!
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-22, 01:25:53
Thanks Sovcat :- ) Ask away if you need something !

Norwegian house

Here is very rough wip from current FAST project, although one that is pretty ambitious. It features both exteriors, interiors, vegetations. I will do extensive write-up on this project afterwards.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/9863486605_b0d6917a97_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/9873354964_b0222c476a_o.jpg)

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-09-22, 09:54:06
Big thanks for sharing your secrets!

Quote
this scene has too many glossy materials and I think it is first time the adaptivness might help a lot
At the moment, adaptiveness is at very early testing stage, it's more like a technology preview. But I think when it's developed it will be useful in such cases. I think HD cache may also speed up glossy areas.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-22, 12:46:17
Big thanks for sharing your secrets!

Quote
this scene has too many glossy materials and I think it is first time the adaptivness might help a lot
At the moment, adaptiveness is at very early testing stage, it's more like a technology preview. But I think when it's developed it will be useful in such cases. I think HD cache may also speed up glossy areas.

What are the HD Cache settings that might be useful here ? The documentation seems to be for Alpha4 and lot has changed, leaving me bit confused.

I am only changing HD Samples (4096) and K number (9999).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Polymax on 2013-09-22, 13:00:27
Please publish the rendering time of your tests with MSI! Because increase MSI give more GI noise and need more rendertime!
And highlight strength can be increase by IOR or level/color reflection, but without raise the rendertime!
MSI is mostly a significant impact only on the caustic!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-09-22, 13:08:45
What are the HD Cache settings that might be useful here ? The documentation seems to be for Alpha4 and lot has changed, leaving me bit confused.

I am only changing HD Samples (4096) and K number (9999).

All I can tell you is that raising HD samples makes the precalculations slower but more precise and it pays off when rendering final shots. Setting lower thresholds may speed up rendering but will produce artefacts. Same for raising glossiness threshold. I too would like to see some delicious tech explanations for all features.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-22, 15:17:19
What are the HD Cache settings that might be useful here ? The documentation seems to be for Alpha4 and lot has changed, leaving me bit confused.

I am only changing HD Samples (4096) and K number (9999).

All I can tell you is that raising HD samples makes the precalculations slower but more precise and it pays off when rendering final shots. Setting lower thresholds may speed up rendering but will produce artefacts. Same for raising glossiness threshold. I too would like to see some delicious tech explanations for all features.

Good morning

right maru!
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-22, 15:24:54
Thanks Sovcat :- ) Ask away if you need something !

Norwegian house

Here is very rough wip from current FAST project, although one that is pretty ambitious. It features both exteriors, interiors, vegetations. I will do extensive write-up on this project afterwards.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/9863486605_b0d6917a97_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/9873354964_b0222c476a_o.jpg)

Anyway, this scene has too many glossy materials and I think it is first time the adaptivness might help a lot. Currently having problems updating to Daily version.

Here is some comparison how Maximal Sample Intensity (MIS) affects GI and highlights strength. As you see, around 400 is starts to look "correct", i.e, close to Unbiased. The default 20 is painfully low for realistic Interior scenes imho. I love the unbiased look, but it comes with heavy price of fireflies that never go away. So 400 is good "compromise".

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/9863552645_3c68b78e93_o.jpg)

Hello Jurai_Talcik

nice work congratulations.

The effect that this ambient light (ceiling, wall ... and scene) reminds me of the script E-Light


Greats and still good for this work of yours
Raf
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Polymax on 2013-09-22, 20:13:40
I tested and, yes! You a right, 400 best solution!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: ondrike on 2013-09-23, 12:54:10
I did some tests and it seems it has no time impact if you use MSI 800, or MSI 20 only +/- 1-2 passes
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-23, 13:15:54
It shouldn't have time impact, but specular materials seems to render much longer until they get clear. I actually struggle much with them inside interior to fully clear out, while rest of scene has been completed. I tried the daily build, but I don't know if it was sucess, it all just seemed to go slow, much slower with adaptivness, with no clear visual impact.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Correntes on 2013-09-23, 15:24:24
With MSI at 400 I found that reflections are a pain to clean :S

Corona standard settings have one thing nice. Noise is usually even across the images. And i think its a big plus.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-23, 15:35:17
Possible work-around is to use rather low, 50 MSI, and instead, "fake" the materials. Put much more reflectivity, higher albedo (+20/30 RGB value) to materials that get affected by GI a lot (ceiling,etc.). But I don't like this :- ) I love how natural things look when I get close to unbiased look.

Same thing with Vray, unclamped, Subpixel-off settings just look better, but the render times are horrible, so it's either one of it (Sub-if you prefer night highlights, Clamp-if you prefer tonemapping freedom) or both off.

Damn quality/time ratio, just can't have it all. But we can hope adaptivness will solve this eventually.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-09-23, 15:40:01
meh, you cannot get away with MSI=0 unless you use bidir/vcm ;). I.e. adaptivity will not help in all cases
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-24, 12:18:10
I found that noise is more uniform while using bucket mode.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-24, 17:26:39
I found that noise is more uniform while using bucket mode.

The bucket mode is fully functional and ready just as progressive ? Hmm, but I love progressive mode a lot, so I prolly won't it even experiment.

I found similar thing to be with PT+PT, which takes of course, longer to clear out noise, but it doesn't differentiate so much with specular materials.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: DraKeXXI on 2013-09-24, 18:32:17
Hi Juraj!

I've always  liked your renders, but....how do you get such nice whites? How do you do the white balance? In camera or in postproduction?
Can you share some tips? There's no way I can get white walls even half as good as yours.

Thanks
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-09-24, 18:38:00
The bucket mode is fully functional and ready just as progressive ? Hmm, but I love progressive mode a lot, so I prolly won't it even experiment.

I would say that bucket mode is almost ready (needs some tweaks like visible frames for buckets) but for now, adaptivity is just a "tech preview", it is useful only in some situations like heavy DOF or scenes with lots of flat, uniform areas.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-24, 21:36:17
Hi Juraj!

I've always  liked your renders, but....how do you get such nice whites? How do you do the white balance? In camera or in postproduction?
Can you share some tips? There's no way I can get white walls even half as good as yours.

Thanks

Hi Drake,

here is from what I wrote (chaotic) in other thread of mine:

about those white wall question. Btw I had to use sometimes a lot of tricks to get it with Vray. And here is the reason: Maximal sample intensity.
The default 20 is not enough imho for interior scenes. It produces much different "gradient" between highlights and shadows. Naturaly, it looks best at 0=fully unbiased. Then,
you get excellent light diffusion, midtones are huge ! Local contrast is best. But at great cost of sampling and fireflies. Maybe adaptivness will solve this ? Not sure, this was done with
Alpha 5 and I used value 50-80 I think, depending on picture. The big difference can mostly be seen in how bright gets the ceiling. At low value it is dark, while the walls already get burned.
At Unbiased settings, the ceiling is much more closer to walls in contrast. The whole settings can get much brighter before burning. And it can't be compensated with exposure.
Imho it only looks photorealistically when it is set at 0. There might be few reasons (GI caustics ? Some secondary reflections,etc.. didn't study too much) Heh, tough choice tough :- ).
Thankfully I could afford 20+ hours per each picture (but it was nicely clear after 6-8 mostly).

Other stuff about white balance:

I usually use somehow color neutral lightning, my HDRis are desaturated (not black and white !), tweaked, sun is 6500 Kelvin (neutral). Corona doesn't have useful color balance at the moment, as it only allows temperature (but many HDRis have color cast), so I tweak it in Photoshop using LEVELS adjastument layer set on COLOR mode.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-25, 13:05:12
Building up the exteriors.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/9931468365_bcc773239b_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-25, 15:50:32
Looks nice! Those pebbles / stones looks like creves from mastodont.
I think you used arroway, right? Something gray or blue-ish should work better imo.

That spotlight on upper left corner is intersecting with wall ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-25, 16:44:29
Looks nice! Those pebbles / stones looks like creves from mastodont.
I think you used arroway, right? Something gray or blue-ish should work better imo.

That spotlight on upper left corner is intersecting with wall ?

Heh, that's valid observation :- ) Funny thing is, those are already scaled down by 30perc. from the original size by Arroway. It's btw absolutely crazy package, there are like 100+ options...
I wanted to originally wanted to go with something white, than found it boring, but looks like you're right, because we also already observed the red color cast might be too much. Maybe the size too !

The spotlight isn't intersecting, it is such a model, partly inside ceiling, partly outside. This one : http://3dsky.org/modules/files/showfile.php?lid=50447
Just looks wrong maybe from this angle.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-25, 17:32:49
Yea, that package is great. I have done some tests already.

Thanks for link, amazing model.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-25, 17:34:27
Please publish the rendering time of your tests with MSI! Because increase MSI give more GI noise and need more rendertime!
And highlight strength can be increase by IOR or level/color reflection, but without raise the rendertime!
MSI is mostly a significant impact only on the caustic!

Incorrect, judge by yourself from the pictures. Each test run for same duration, 5 minutes. Low MSI cuts away lot of rays that would otherwise contribute significantly to GI and reflection.

Also, artificially rising reflection is WRONG solution, and it will not yield similar results, actually, far from it. Because if you raise reflectivity, but keep MSI low, the whole surface will reflect more light, e.g being lighter overall, the spectrum from dark to highlight will change. The proper gradient between shadows and highlights is achieved only with higher MSI.

But it doesn't matter to those who don't need it. It's there after all as "optimization" parameter, you trade of correctness for speed. If you want speed, you keep low MSI, if you want to get more correct, closer to unbiased look, you raise the value. But that is the only solution, not artificially creating materials with high albedo and unreal reflectivity.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-25, 17:39:45
Yea, that package is great. I have done some tests already.

Thanks for link, amazing model.

It is great until you must choose, but this is first time when there are just too many options for sake of it :- ) It's absolutely crazy. And the size of it...hundreds of 4k textures.
Too bad the materials provided are for Maxwell. They have crazy nice demos rendered with it on website.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-27, 23:29:54
Tried to optimize the scene as much as possible, to see how fast I can get away with. It's not overdone, as the glass (thick, hybrid mode) is still around room, though I could hide the one behind camera, I choose not to.
Interestingly, 95perc. of scene looks identical after 30 minutes and 3 hours alike for this 1920x1080px render. It's just the micro-noise in darker walls on left and right in the picture. It doesn't bother me much, but for commercial projects, I want to be as clean as possible. I guess here the adaptivity could somehow help, as most of the picture just get oversampled too much for nothing.
Anyway, for now, best result are using hi-res and downsampling with slight blur. I like the detail better than.

Btw settings: PT32 ( I tend to find the higher PTs to converge with much less fireflies or speckles at all, while noise seems to be identical, just less amount of passes, but since I never have problem with AA, neighter use DOF, this number seems fine for most of my scenes), Light Samples = 2 ( not sure if I should ever rise this for my work, from test, haven't really found better noise converge, I mostly need GI rather than direct light noise to clear out), HD Cache 2048, rest default. MSI 200

Not much time to test this, but does anyone use different filter outside of default Tent ? Any reason why and what are the results ?

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5327/9972043023_093141b719_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-09-27, 23:35:09

Not much time to test this, but does anyone use different filter outside of default Tent ? Any reason why and what are the results ?

I use None, it is easier to debug scenes with :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-27, 23:39:31
Can you try bucket mode with 16 init samples and 2-4 passes (to fit your 30min time). ? Bucket have some adaptivity inside so...

Anyway, i have same problem with that noise which take ages to converge.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-27, 23:49:08
Can you try bucket mode with 16 init samples and 2-4 passes (to fit your 30min time). ? Bucket have some adaptivity inside so...

Anyway, i have same problem with that noise which take ages to converge.

Should I do this within my current Alpha5 ? I will install daily in around 2 weeks, no courage right now :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-27, 23:50:31
Not sure but i think A5 is missing adaptivity ? Just open bucket tab and you`ll see :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-27, 23:55:21
Not sure but i think A5 is missing adaptivity ? Just open bucket tab and you`ll see :)

No it isn't there yet, I thought that you had in mind something about bucket mode directly. I had already played with adaptivity with latest daily, but somehow just wasn't sure it really did something, just seemed to only go slower. But I really didn't pay much attention to testing it, just can't afford the time now, but I was very curious. I replaced it again with Alpha5 to finish current projects.

I am somehow not really fit for tester, maybe I will just calmly wait for Alpha6. Time flies fast and I am quite happy with Alpha5.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-09-28, 00:55:17
It is either noise from indirect illumination, or direct one (enviro light), or refractive or reflective caustics.

First one, indirect illumination kind, should get better with increasing amount of PT samples (Usually to something between 32 and 64).

Second kind...  direct illumination, will get better if light samples multiplier is increased (usually to something like 8).

Third, refractive caustics, can be minimized by either using hybrid glass mode and/or lowering MSI value.

Fourth kind, reflective caustics, can be again minimized by lowering MSI.

I would bet in this case that it is first or second. I recommend this:

Make a small region (150*100px at most) in the problematic spot

Set time limit to something like 20 seconds

Render and save the picture.

Increase PT samples, render again, save the picture, and compare. If this makes some noticeable difference, then it could be indirect illumination noise.

Revert PT samples back, increase light samples multiplier, render again, and compare with original. If this makes some noticeable difference, then it could be direct illumination noise.

Revert light samples multiplier back, select all glass object in scenes and hide them. Render again, and compare with original. This time to see if the problem is not refractive caustics. If this step has a huge impact, then it is probably glass.

If the noise is still there, and hiding glass did not make any significant difference, then unhide glass, lower MSI to something like 10, and render again. If that makes significant difference, then it is unclamped reflection caustics.

If none of these makes significant difference, then its just probably not that easy scene to render.

Other than that, it could be for example noise from bump map with way too low fitering. Or there can be a very little hole in the back room somewhere, where little bit of direct lighting leaks through from the environment and causes some noise... or there is always small possibility of it being a bug ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-28, 01:00:12
(http://blog.lmorchard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/well_done_sir.gif)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-28, 01:20:35
It is either noise from indirect illumination, or direct one (enviro light), or refractive or reflective caustics.

First one, indirect illumination kind, should get better with increasing amount of PT samples (Usually to something between 32 and 64).

Second kind...  direct illumination, will get better if light samples multiplier is increased (usually to something like 8).

Third, refractive caustics, can be minimized by either using hybrid glass mode and/or lowering MSI value.

Fourth kind, reflective caustics, can be again minimized by lowering MSI.

I would bet in this case that it is first or second. I recommend this:

Make a small region (150*100px at most) in the problematic spot

Set time limit to something like 20 seconds

Render and save the picture.

........

...


holy words
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-28, 01:23:11

Lots of nice advice

Hey, feeling alive at this time :- ) ? Thanks, thats sums it up nicely though ! It stays there regardless of MSI, and I only use Hybrid mode (even in scenes where the glass is just everywhere, even regular glass seems to do just fine, but I want to err on the safer side).
Now the playing between PT and SMs kinda annoys me, because I can't really decide when the settings are on the best spot and when it's overkill/under no matter how many tests I do. I can play forever with it :- D

But since you mention value 8 for SMs, that's not so high, and maybe I could just set this value there as default ? What is the range of values here that people use ? For example I will also include artificial lights here, where would be some sweat-spot to keep safe ?

Now, when I think of it, this noise appears only once I include CoronaSun as additional light to HDRi. Could this mean something ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-28, 01:42:09
Hi Juraj_Talcik

as always, your works are always very nice

Can you describe the scene and the global settings in detail?


Thank
Raf
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-28, 02:09:10
Hi Juraj_Talcik

as always, your works are always very nice

Can you describe the scene and the global settings in detail?


Thank
Raf

I will, next week, need to finish this job, another job, and then I finish tutorial :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-28, 03:01:48
Guys, any advice welcome, person who solves it, will get 20 beers. Or I will repay the service somehow in meaningful way if I can help.

I need to light the scenes using lights that simulate COLORED LED (Philips HUE https://www.meethue.com/en-US ) lights. But no matter what RGB value I set inside CoronaLight, they do not behave like I would expect.
I don't know anything about artificial light and my research fails me.

This is what I need to do: Notice also how the lights have incredible intensity, while still keeping color and not even burning the source ! what the hell is this trickery

(http://www.techbox.sk/files/photogals/philips_ambilight_hue/philips_ambilight_hue_1.jpg)

Do you know about any secret tricks, formulas for conversion ? I have simple jpeg gradient with colors, but how do I set up lights so they end up being such color ?


Yes, I am complete beginner to artificial lightning, and I feel desperate. Been studying substractive lights, RGB gamma conversions, etc. for 6 hours and I am getting nowhere.

Maybe I should be studying Neon lights for similar behaviour ? Can't figure out how to create the exact color I need.


Maybe I should go sleep instead
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-28, 03:45:01
^_^  good
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-09-28, 08:16:01
Guys, any advice welcome, person who solves it, will get 20 beers. Or I will repay the service somehow in meaningful way if I can help.

I need to light the scenes using lights that simulate COLORED LED (Philips HUE https://www.meethue.com/en-US ) lights. But no matter what RGB value I set inside CoronaLight, they do not behave like I would expect.
I don't know anything about artificial light and my research fails me.

This is what I need to do: Notice also how the lights have incredible intensity, while still keeping color and not even burning the source ! what the hell is this trickery

To avoid burns, use the higlight compression in post processing. Should that be for any reason insufficient, you can use standard 3dsmax lights, where you can specify falloff, but I strongly discourage that.

As for the color, if you need stronger tint than you can get with RGB colors, you can put CoronaSolidTex into the texmap slot of the light, switch its input method to the spinners, and set NEGATIVE values for some components (e.g. for very bright red set blue and green to some negative colors). You can create extremely pure colors outside the RGB gamut with this method.

Please test this ASAP, I want to drink for free at Splash :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-09-28, 10:10:53

Lots of nice advice

Hey, feeling alive at this time :- ) ? Thanks, thats sums it up nicely though ! It stays there regardless of MSI, and I only use Hybrid mode (even in scenes where the glass is just everywhere, even regular glass seems to do just fine, but I want to err on the safer side).
Now the playing between PT and SMs kinda annoys me, because I can't really decide when the settings are on the best spot and when it's overkill/under no matter how many tests I do. I can play forever with it :- D

But since you mention value 8 for SMs, that's not so high, and maybe I could just set this value there as default ? What is the range of values here that people use ? For example I will also include artificial lights here, where would be some sweat-spot to keep safe ?

Now, when I think of it, this noise appears only once I include CoronaSun as additional light to HDRi. Could this mean something ?

CoronaSun has "Separate sampling" checkbox. You may want try to turn it off and see how that goes.

As for LSM value, you only need to raise that if direct lighting is the slowest lighting component converging in your scene. They all converge parallel, and if your direct lighting is somewhat complex, it may take unnecessarily long to converge, because it gets insufficient samples at the same time when for example GI is already getting more than it needs. So by raising it, you can multiply how many samples direct lighting gets and put it's convergence on par with other components.

So raise it from default only, when you have suspicion it could be the slowest converging part of lighting solution.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: ivaylovelkov on 2013-09-28, 10:52:09
Hi there. I'm not an expert but i made this quick test. I think this is close to the searched result. Of course it need more work on the materials and render settings, but i just convert a vray scene and i put corona+ies lights. I think with better materials will have potential :)
P.S. - I'll appreciate if you check the last 3 images from my gallery and give some comment if there's a something that is obviously wrong for a proffesional like you :)
http://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,1623.0.html (http://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,1623.0.html)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-09-28, 11:47:22
I'm not quite sure what the issue is in your light setup but here is a really quick test of mine. I just tried to make the scene at least a bit physically realistic by setting up camera (F 2, 1/30s, ISO 1600), skylight colour, giving the lights high saturation (for example: 255,5,5) and like Keymaster wrote - spinning highlight compression until it looks acceptable. I hope it looks similar to your reference picture.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-09-28, 12:33:47
Good morning

Hi maru
" I just tried to make the scene at least a bit physically realistic by setting up camera (F 2, 1/30s, ISO 1600), skylight colour,..... "


This type of setting of the camera, are present in the new version 6 of Corona?


Thanks
Raf
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-28, 13:24:13


As for the color, if you need stronger tint than you can get with RGB colors, you can put CoronaSolidTex into the texmap slot of the light, switch its input method to the spinners, and set NEGATIVE values for some components (e.g. for very bright red set blue and green to some negative colors). You can create extremely pure colors outside the RGB gamut with this method.

Please test this ASAP, I want to drink for free at Splash :D

This should be it !! Whoa, didn't have any idea such think is possible.

Well, don't worry you have those beers anyway :- )

Hey much thanks guys for helping, those who happen to be in Prague and Venice will get their beers, the rest have my honest gratitude :- )

Yesterday I thought this would take like 10 minutes, and I ended up experimenting 8+ hours in the end into utter desperation.

Maru and Ivan, those pictures you did have exactly my problem, the lights vane in saturation through their intensity and also change their tone/hue. The LED lights have some extremely rich, saturated colors, and with standard RGB I was not able to get the exact tones I wanted. Also, I need to reproduce some very exact tones, and I wonder outside of experimentation, if there is some rough formula that can help.

Try this color from this gradient (the extremes on left and right).

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/9979718263_63bc05e5ce_o.jpg)

I'll have a look Ivan !
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:15:56
Well, Keymasters' suggestion worked. The colors could be reproduced only within the HDR range on CoronaSolidTex. It's btw nightmare to get the tone you want, seriously, slight movement can change hue and intensity drastically. I still own him 20 beers, but only because we got stuck on damn highway. Very cool guy and I am happy to met him.

Btw, it's NOT some sort of artistic endeavor of mine, but commercial project that illustrates how PHILIPS HUE with AMBILIGHT light application works within interiors. This crazy gradient is called "Night in Paris" :- ) I ain't the one who chose it.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7410/10022087473_e7ebf46124_o.jpg)

Many more variations will come :- D

Regular 4000Kelvin lighting.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/10022250023_e3c2549646_o.jpg)

Romantic morning mood = )

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5345/10022216255_bda8eff1cb_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-30, 18:20:22
Well, thats kinda trippy :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:25:19
Well, thats kinda trippy :D

Well wait till you see Purple/Blue Bedroom.

But in all honesty, it somehow happens to look really cool in reality when you see it. We have this montaged into our real bedroom, and it's big fun. This is how the product looks like:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1276535_10201951868708460_1780182492_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-09-30, 18:32:49
Will buy some for gf`s brother :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:37:16
Will buy some for gf`s brother :)

Just wait till you see the price :- ( ...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-09-30, 18:38:34
PHILIPS HUE with AMBILIGHT light application sure does seem to work if you want to turn you bedroom into cheap looking whorehouse :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:43:06
PHILIPS HUE with AMBILIGHT light application sure does seem to work if you want to turn you bedroom into cheap looking whorehouse :D

But that's kinda fitting for bedroom no ?

Well, anyway, I did not choose the two most craziest moods they have. It has over 100+ presets, and some are really nice, calming and relaxing. Easy, non-satured blue tones, etc. Or slight yellow glow. It's very cool thing
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-09-30, 18:43:57
First thing I thought was "sweet jesus who wants a light like this in his house?" but maybe it's just one of those things not even a greatest render/photo can reproduce in comparison with human eye.

Maybe it would be possible to have this negative colour value automated somehow? A negative colour picker? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-09-30, 18:44:41
PHILIPS HUE with AMBILIGHT light application sure does seem to work if you want to turn you bedroom into cheap looking whorehouse :D

But that's kinda fitting for bedroom no ?

Well, anyway, I did not choose the two most craziest moods they have. It has over 100+ presets, and some are really nice, calming and relaxing. Easy, non-satured blue tones, etc. Or slight yellow glow. It's very cool thing

Sure, looking forward to see more. I just could not help it after seeing the first one with red/blue toning. It reminded me a lot of how the night clubs look :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:47:14
First thing I thought was "sweet jesus who wants a light like this in his house?" but maybe it's just one of those things not even a greatest render/photo can reproduce in comparison with human eye.

Maybe it would be possible to have this negative colour value automated somehow? A negative colour picker? :D

I actually didn't end up using negative color. The HDR one just worked differently, more like I wanted.

In all honesty, this is not far from how this preset looks in real life. It has the same effect. I meant the whole LED/Ambilight is cool in real life :- D. It's kinda interesting experience.
Yeah I know it's bit crazy but, it is what it is :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-09-30, 18:49:12
PHILIPS HUE with AMBILIGHT light application sure does seem to work if you want to turn you bedroom into cheap looking whorehouse :D

But that's kinda fitting for bedroom no ?

Well, anyway, I did not choose the two most craziest moods they have. It has over 100+ presets, and some are really nice, calming and relaxing. Easy, non-satured blue tones, etc. Or slight yellow glow. It's very cool thing

Sure, looking forward to see more. I just could not help it after seeing the first one with red/blue toning. It reminded me a lot of how the night clubs look :D

Heh I was on verge if I am gonna publish the colored versions under my name too, but now I am WAY more inclined to NO :- D It will have enough pictures with no artifical lighting too. I think that will be better solution :- ).

By now there's everyone having fun at this even at my office and home :- D God, I did not expect this :- D.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-01, 01:22:54
ok, so about that beer... :D

We need a second splash or some shit ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-01, 01:33:18
ok, so about that beer... :D

We need a second splash or some shit ;)

I can still send you package when you write your brand and adress !

This was our second Splash with Veronika and I have to say that even though we stayed just half of it unlike last year, it was really cool experience and I didn't expect so many friendly people, we were much more unknown last year, though still as not lonely as in Venice (thanks god for people like Adam Hotovy).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-10-01, 09:54:55
Hi Juraj, love your work.

I think that LED lighting does have a certain appeal. Of course it depends on the space, but I could see that looking better than plain ceiling lights in a simplistic interior.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-10-02, 13:53:25
Hi Jurai

input :The Conga Room  "Los Angeles"
The Conga Room, in its new location at LA LIVE in downtown Los Angeles across from the Staples Center, is the city’s premier Latin nightclub.

http://belzbergarchitects.com/project/conga-room/ (http://belzbergarchitects.com/project/conga-room/)

Greats
Raf
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-02, 14:29:41
Hi Juraj, love your work.

I think that LED lighting does have a certain appeal. Of course it depends on the space, but I could see that looking better than plain ceiling lights in a simplistic interior.

Thanks Vkiuru ! Imho the lightning looks nice when more down-to-earth colors are chosen. I personally like the golden, or weak blue, but not these saturated and combinated tones.




That looks very cool actually :- ) And I think it's again because single color was choosen. Red. And not Red/Blue, Red/Purple...


Well, I am back to something normal with this.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/10052846205_4f605fe723_o.jpg)

Anyway, a break for some time, because not it's Venice time ! Academy Day 4 is waiting and the program looks amazing. Can't wait to see Bertrand Benoit in person :- ) Then I travel to NYC to work, so I will continue in week, and also, work on tutorial. Anyone in Venice ? Don't want to feel alienated there, I will gladly have chat with whoever will come around.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-10-02, 14:37:18
Nice ^_^
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: rafpug on 2013-10-02, 14:41:48
Hi Jurai

The rendering time?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-02, 14:47:45
Hi Jurai

The rendering time?

4K (3840px) = circa 10 hours (it's not clear completely..)


Is there an option in Corona for low priority ? Or is it by default ? Will the pause button someday be integrated ?

Need to figure out if I can play World of Wacraft during render or not.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: cecofuli on 2013-10-02, 19:45:58
I live near Milan, but Friday and Saturday I have to be in Switzerland with clients... Sunday I take a rest a day.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-02, 20:10:01
Is there an option in Corona for low priority ? Or is it by default ? Will the pause button someday be integrated ?

It is on by default (option is in debug tab), but it still sucks due to 3dsmax fault. Setting entire 3dsmax process to low priority helps sometimes. Pause button will not be integrated (at least not the 3dsmax pause button), because the API support for pausing is UTTERLY RETARDED and counts on any renderer being singlethreaded. You can cancel the render and then resume it later with the corona feature though.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: agentdark45 on 2013-10-02, 20:19:14
Wow that last render is INSANE! Would you mind answering a few quick questions?

1. What colour temperature are the interior lights? You've really nailed the colour balance of the scene.
2. Did you still desaturate the HDR image for this shot?
3. Mind sharing your water material? I've been completely hopeless so far with water in Corona.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-02, 23:40:19
Is there an option in Corona for low priority ? Or is it by default ? Will the pause button someday be integrated ?
You can cancel the render and then resume it later with the corona feature though.

Really :- ) ? Is this feature already there ? It's really nothing important, but it's handy occasional :- )

Wow that last render is INSANE! Would you mind answering a few quick questions?

1. What colour temperature are the interior lights? You've really nailed the colour balance of the scene.
2. Did you still desaturate the HDR image for this shot?
3. Mind sharing your water material? I've been completely hopeless so far with water in Corona.

Hi Agent,

1: The interior lights are 4500K :- ) The white balance is set at neutral 6500K. It is almost always there, unless very specific need.
2: For exterior, no I didn't, I wanted the very slight blue cast it had. I might if I wanted to go for overcast scenario, but this one I called "fake dusk" as it is, just underexposed :- ).
3: The water material...isn't even material. It's ridicously basic, just had no time to even give it properly painted bump map.

It's IOR 1.333, super weak bump/noise set on Fractal, FULL refractivness and reflectivness (RGB 255/255/255), solid refractive mode. I think it is just plane, not cube, but I think it wouldn't play any role in this angle anyway. Not sure from head


I live near Milan, but Friday and Saturday I have to be in Switzerland with clients... Sunday I take a rest a day.


Few months ago I planned to take stop at Milan too, and even spend 2-3 days at Lago di Garda mountain biking :- ) We loved Italy so much last year that we planned this as full vacation originally. But now we leave to US and had too much work, so we literally rush for those 2 days and leave on Sunday morning.. :- (
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-03, 00:36:13
Is there an option in Corona for low priority ? Or is it by default ? Will the pause button someday be integrated ?
You can cancel the render and then resume it later with the corona feature though.

Really :- ) ? Is this feature already there ? It's really nothing important, but it's handy occasional :- )

yes, in daily builds, buttons in main render settings
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-10-03, 00:51:33
Or enter task manager and set afinity on 3ds max process. Im shutting off 1-2 (threads) when playing bf3/bf4 ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-03, 01:05:59
Or enter task manager and set afinity on 3ds max process. Im shutting off 1-2 (threads) when playing bf3/bf4 ;)

Lol nice. I thought setting lower priority could affect Max's stability, but since you guys run it this way, that's good to know :- ) Not like I need the performance for BF anyway, WoW is very old.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-10-03, 01:10:49
1 thread off was ok with WOW for me.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-03, 01:22:00
process scheduling was written by microsoft, not autodesk, so it is stable ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-10-03, 13:17:25
Its "headtodesk" not autodeks . I have never seen so buggy software like 3ds Max is.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: DeadClown on 2013-10-03, 13:56:40
I have never seen so buggy software like 3ds Max is.

Try "composite", you will be surprised :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: agentdark45 on 2013-10-03, 17:15:14
Hi Agent,

1: The interior lights are 4500K :- ) The white balance is set at neutral 6500K. It is almost always there, unless very specific need.
2: For exterior, no I didn't, I wanted the very slight blue cast it had. I might if I wanted to go for overcast scenario, but this one I called "fake dusk" as it is, just underexposed :- ).
3: The water material...isn't even material. It's ridicously basic, just had no time to even give it properly painted bump map.

It's IOR 1.333, super weak bump/noise set on Fractal, FULL refractivness and reflectivness (RGB 255/255/255), solid refractive mode. I think it is just plane, not cube, but I think it wouldn't play any role in this angle anyway. Not sure from head

Cheers for the reply man - I might have to start adopting your approach of leaving the white balance at 6500k and adjusting the other light sources instead given the quality of your work!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: jrcenator on 2013-10-14, 04:11:42
Hi Juraj,

for the additional light (light bulb), did you use corona light or emission in material?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-16, 04:49:06
Hi Juraj,

for the additional light (light bulb), did you use corona light or emission in material?

I am pretty sure it was emission because of time reasons, but I regretted it I think. I think it would be good option to have GI check on!off next to emission slot so it's just visual like in Vray. But I am not sure if this is already too fake/problematic to implement.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: jrcenator on 2013-10-16, 09:36:24
Hi Juraj,

for the additional light (light bulb), did you use corona light or emission in material?

I am pretty sure it was emission because of time reasons, but I regretted it I think. I think it would be good option to have GI check on!off next to emission slot so it's just visual like in Vray. But I am not sure if this is already too fake/problematic to implement.

Thank you for the response.
Yes, I also sometimes think which is better, using emission or straight corona light object :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-10-16, 10:20:56
Hi Juraj,

for the additional light (light bulb), did you use corona light or emission in material?

I am pretty sure it was emission because of time reasons, but I regretted it I think. I think it would be good option to have GI check on!off next to emission slot so it's just visual like in Vray. But I am not sure if this is already too fake/problematic to implement.

Chances are I'm not fully understanding what you're after but regarding a visual bright look without GI couldn't you use Corona Constant MTL? it has both a texture slot and a multiplier.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-16, 16:31:17
Hi Juraj,

for the additional light (light bulb), did you use corona light or emission in material?

I am pretty sure it was emission because of time reasons, but I regretted it I think. I think it would be good option to have GI check on!off next to emission slot so it's just visual like in Vray. But I am not sure if this is already too fake/problematic to implement.

Chances are I'm not fully understanding what you're after but regarding a visual bright look without GI couldn't you use Corona Constant MTL? it has both a texture slot and a multiplier.

Thanks :- ) I think that might be something to look at, what I was after, was just the bright look without GI (additional noise). I often never learn about these details because I am somehow not inclined to explore all the options and there isn't really manual for corona yet.
For example, I have yet to find any use of VrayExtraTex for my  type of work, I am just happy living with the most basic stuff.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-10-24, 22:13:24
Hey man, since you're doing pretty large renders and seem to get pretty noise free results (I know you struggle with this like the rest of us but those renders would not look that clean overnight rendered with my rig) what is your hardware like? I'm in the process of upgrading my 4 year old rig. You might have already answered this elsewhere but I couldn't find it.

Also, did you get satisfactory results with PT+HD eventually? I mean contrast-wise specifically - after much experimenting I still have no idea if those sweet dark PT+PT shadows can be reproduced with HD cache.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-25, 02:50:09
Hey man, since you're doing pretty large renders and seem to get pretty noise free results (I know you struggle with this like the rest of us but those renders would not look that clean overnight rendered with my rig) what is your hardware like? I'm in the process of upgrading my 4 year old rig. You might have already answered this elsewhere but I couldn't find it.

Also, did you get satisfactory results with PT+HD eventually? I mean contrast-wise specifically - after much experimenting I still have no idea if those sweet dark PT+PT shadows can be reproduced with HD cache.

I am pretty sure PT+PT gives me much better visual look, the details are just so crisp..and nice. Maybe it's just haptic, and the difference might not actually objectively be that big, but to me it seems like there is.
But I used only PT+HD for every single commercial render I did with Corona for past months, not a single time pt+pt.

Actually I struggle with hi-res, but mostly because the frame-buffer acts strangely at high resolution, it stutters, freezes, and I wonder if it's just framebuffer or if the engine struggles as well, so I stay quite "low" imho :- ) at 4k mostly = 3840x2160px. I dislike lesser resolutions as they don't show the detail I would like, and just look oversimplified/blurry. There's never enough resolution ! :- D I was very stunned when my current client showed me their catalogue photos (that I need to match in quality) and they were photographed by PhaseOne camera with 12 000px in size.... just crazy. Of course they were later downsampled, but the detail and clarity was stunning, it even overshadowed NikonD800 which I find to be landmark of quality for architectural photography (among digital cameras, not taking into account something like medium-format)

I use few 3930k rigs, Asus X79 boards, gtx 670/760 with 4GB ram, 32-64GB ram (Corsair/Kingston 1600 low-profiles), Fractal Cases (R3 and XL versions). I also have one old 2600k but I recently found out its performance is same as my laptop (haswell i7 4800HQ) so this one will go to trash and I will buy 3 another 4930k now. They're very sweet price/performance. But in spring I will build atleast one E5 26xx v2 xeon machine, but at the moment I need quantity as well.

I never use distributed in Corona or Vray but instead render full night on each computer per one picture (10 hours or so atleast per picture no matter what). It's the easiest solution for me and I quite like such primitive ways.

I find buying HW much cheaper then using render-farms (Rebus), I do a lot of animations now and the calculation at Rebus is always like 2000 euros per minute at economy tarif of animation and at that price....I prefer to buy another computer and keep it for next 3 years of its moral life. It's also more user-friendly when working with plugins and latest software versions.

I am super big fan of HW, have been building my own computers for past 10 years, so if you want to discuss anything HW related I am very open to it :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-10-25, 09:26:35
Oh sweet, thanks for the reply!

Yes PT+PT is so very crisp! Depending on the scene I'm finding HD to sometimes produce painfully flat results, especially when zooming up close to tableware, for example. I'd love to be able to use PT+PT solely.

My current CPU is a measly i7 920 which really doesn't cut it anymore, not even close! I haven't put much thought to this yet but so far it looks like something like Xeon E5-1660 could be a way to go perhaps since I could fit two of those into one case. If I got my math right, that would speed up rendering about 5x.. which I hoped to be the solution to switching over to PT+PT at least when not on a strict deadline but oh man.. how many exactly does "few 3930K rigs" mean? If you are rendering 10 hours with those to get the results you want, I might have been overly positive. Anyway I'm of the same opinion about the details, I'd love ~8000 px to be a realistic standard when rendering.. still ways to go I suppose.

Ah D800, there's another investment waiting to happen :D My old D700 is beginning to break up. I've marveled at the results people are getting with the D800, it's amazing. I think it's surprisingly affordable, keeping in mind the D3 (which I thought was a glorified D700 :P ) was still about 10k euros a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-10-25, 09:45:34
To get slightly crispier detail, you may try to set filter width of cone filter to 1.333 instead of 1.5 ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-10-25, 10:16:56
Or use supersampling 4 (internal res.)
It will render current resolution x 4 and downsample it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: agentdark45 on 2013-10-25, 12:20:40
Hey man, since you're doing pretty large renders and seem to get pretty noise free results (I know you struggle with this like the rest of us but those renders would not look that clean overnight rendered with my rig) what is your hardware like? I'm in the process of upgrading my 4 year old rig. You might have already answered this elsewhere but I couldn't find it.

Also, did you get satisfactory results with PT+HD eventually? I mean contrast-wise specifically - after much experimenting I still have no idea if those sweet dark PT+PT shadows can be reproduced with HD cache.

I am pretty sure PT+PT gives me much better visual look, the details are just so crisp..and nice. Maybe it's just haptic, and the difference might not actually objectively be that big, but to me it seems like there is.
But I used only PT+HD for every single commercial render I did with Corona for past months, not a single time pt+pt.

Actually I struggle with hi-res, but mostly because the frame-buffer acts strangely at high resolution, it stutters, freezes, and I wonder if it's just framebuffer or if the engine struggles as well, so I stay quite "low" imho :- ) at 4k mostly = 3840x2160px. I dislike lesser resolutions as they don't show the detail I would like, and just look oversimplified/blurry. There's never enough resolution ! :- D I was very stunned when my current client showed me their catalogue photos (that I need to match in quality) and they were photographed by PhaseOne camera with 12 000px in size.... just crazy. Of course they were later downsampled, but the detail and clarity was stunning, it even overshadowed NikonD800 which I find to be landmark of quality for architectural photography (among digital cameras, not taking into account something like medium-format)

I use few 3930k rigs, Asus X79 boards, gtx 670/760 with 4GB ram, 32-64GB ram (Corsair/Kingston 1600 low-profiles), Fractal Cases (R3 and XL versions). I also have one old 2600k but I recently found out its performance is same as my laptop (haswell i7 4800HQ) so this one will go to trash and I will buy 3 another 4930k now. They're very sweet price/performance. But in spring I will build atleast one E5 26xx v2 xeon machine, but at the moment I need quantity as well.

I never use distributed in Corona or Vray but instead render full night on each computer per one picture (10 hours or so atleast per picture no matter what). It's the easiest solution for me and I quite like such primitive ways.

I find buying HW much cheaper then using render-farms (Rebus), I do a lot of animations now and the calculation at Rebus is always like 2000 euros per minute at economy tarif of animation and at that price....I prefer to buy another computer and keep it for next 3 years of its moral life. It's also more user-friendly when working with plugins and latest software versions.

I am super big fan of HW, have been building my own computers for past 10 years, so if you want to discuss anything HW related I am very open to it :- )

Damn, I didn't know rebus could work out that expensive! Like you said, might as well buy the most high end machine for that sort of money. I'm currently running an overclocked 3930k @ 4.2ghz with 32gb Corsair 1600hmz ram + GTX 670 in a Fractal Define XLR2 case (the sound proofing definitely helps when cranking the fans). Those v2 xeons are damn pricey though, I'm not sure the price / performance ratio would be worth it tbh? (vs a watercooled 4.8ghz 4930k for example)...however I can't wait for the 8-core Haswell CPU's to drop next year!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-10-25, 12:25:22
Im curious about 6core mainstream CPU for 1150. I was ordering new pc few weeks ago and i took 4470 because of "dead" 2011 socket.
Yea, 4930 is great CPU but i hope that next year something new will arrive for 1150 too.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-25, 17:43:52
uhm, double post..
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-25, 18:01:04

.. how many exactly does "few 3930K rigs" mean? If you are rendering 10 hours with those to get the results you want, I might have been overly positive. Anyway I'm of the same opinion about the details, I'd love ~8000 px to be a realistic standard when rendering.. still ways to go I suppose.

Ah D800, there's another investment waiting to happen :D My old D700 is beginning to break up. I've marveled at the results people are getting with the D800, it's amazing. I think it's surprisingly affordable, keeping in mind the D3 (which I thought was a glorified D700 :P ) was still about 10k euros a couple of years ago.

I have 3 currently. But like I said, that's not to be meant in distributed fashion, but each renders separately over night, so the time is unimportant, because I am sleeping a lot :- ).
I use one, one is used by Veronika, and the third renders while we work. The i7 2600k is no longer used, so I will rebuild it into some small game machine.

I wanted to buy D800 as well ! But now I am on verge because the new sony a7r is out  ! Same 36M chip, no mirrors, produces crisp detail like the D800A version, cost less, is super small and light, works with all lenses (you can use Canon Tilt-shift, not that I have money for that...ever...).



 it looks like something like Xeon E5-1660 could be a way to go perhaps since I could fit two of those into one case.

Sorry, missed this. It's not possible to multi-socket E5-1xxx v1/v2 that's why they're so cheap. There is little to no advantage in getting Xeon 1xxx compared to i7 for our purposes, unless you want to use ECC rams and other small advantages of server platform, because the chip price/performance will be almost the same.


Or use supersampling 4 (internal res.)
It will render current resolution x 4 and downsample it.

1
I tried this once at 4k but the framebuffer acted same way as rendering 8k at 2 internal. Now, I don't remember if I tried 8k with internal res1..
But this stuttering and freezing threw me off a bit, as I wasn't sure if it's just framebuffer having problem updating the picture, or if the freezes correspond to render delays too.


Im curious about 6core mainstream CPU for 1150. I was ordering new pc few weeks ago and i took 4470 because of "dead" 2011 socket.
Yea, 4930 is great CPU but i hope that next year something new will arrive for 1150 too.


I am not sure if that will happen, and Broadwell is big mystery at the moment. It could end up being fully soldered, non-overclocable chip. But it could be anything.
I think haswell-e Octacore will be finally atleast some step. I find the enthusiast platform to be better deal, because if you buy a lot of ram, good gpu and overall, the price expense of 3930k/4930k is not that big imho.

Now I see, you bought the 4770k with idea of upgrading the chip next year ? I haven't even thought of that. But it's true LG2011 used so little of its potential and is already dated..



To get slightly crispier detail, you may try to set filter width of cone filter to 1.333 instead of 1.5 ;)


I actually wanted to try this, but wasn't sure if it won't produce artifacts, because I've read somewhere I shouldn't tinker much with the default :- ) Can I play with other values, like blurring too ?


Damn, I didn't know rebus could work out that expensive! Like you said, might as well buy the most high end machine for that sort of money. I'm currently running an overclocked 3930k @ 4.2ghz with 32gb Corsair 1600hmz ram + GTX 670 in a Fractal Define XLR2 case (the sound proofing definitely helps when cranking the fans). Those v2 xeons are damn pricey though, I'm not sure the price / performance ratio would be worth it tbh? (vs a watercooled 4.8ghz 4930k for example)...however I can't wait for the 8-core Haswell CPU's to drop next year!


4.8ghz long time stable with regular water cooling with 4930k is not much possible. I haven't seen anyone running such setup at overclockers, when 90perc. struggle getting stable 4.5 chip. I find 4.2 sweet spot for rendering 24/24.

And it actually is price viable. For example the "cheap" 10 core at low ghz 2660 v2 at double socket will run you slightly less then two 4930k workstations, with same performance in rendering, but rather poor non-threaded. From there on, it does get expensive, but at most extreme version, you will just pay 1-2k euros on top of quite powerfull machine with more than triple the performance of current overclocked 4930k and you will have it in single-box. The motherboards are no longer so expensive, and good WS can be almost same range as top enthusiast 2011 (like IV ROG,Evga Dark,etc..), you can put regular rams, or unbuffered ECC which cost the same, just  single vga, single for all repeatable components and you only per more for chips, and in return get the luxury of single box without the need for networking and additional care/space.

As for REBUS: I never found the cloud to be so cheap as others consider it. Peter Guthrie mentioned in Venice he paid 70 euros for one picture (and rendered 20 like this). It might not be super expensive, but I have hard time justifying such one-time costs even if it's just small percentage of project budget, I would like to keep that money value.

I am really happy to see so many people running identical setup with Fractal cases :- ). They're the most sexy cases you can buy for such money. At certain times I felt like I wanted to try a bit of luxury and order Lial-Li, but then I read all the reviews how the build quality is lower these days and the alum shell is ever thinner, that Fractal seems like even bigger win-win situation.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-10-25, 18:31:20
Blurring only works for gauss, it will not do anything for tent afaik.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-25, 18:41:38
Blurring only works for gauss, it will not do anything for tent afaik.

Do I need to/want to use the filter at all ? Outside of animation I didn't use one for stills in Vray but I didn't give much thought into it here.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-10-25, 19:38:57
Yes, you do.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-25, 23:46:19
Do I need to/want to use the filter at all ? Outside of animation I didn't use one for stills in Vray but I didn't give much thought into it here.

"No filter" will always give you the best results in the long run (in the sense of getting as close as possible to the real world captured with an ideal real world camera), so you might consider it, if you are willing to invest the rendertime into it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-26, 00:04:23
Do I need to/want to use the filter at all ? Outside of animation I didn't use one for stills in Vray but I didn't give much thought into it here.

"No filter" will always give you the best results in the long run (in the sense of getting as close as possible to the real world captured with an ideal real world camera), so you might consider it, if you are willing to invest the rendertime into it.

Well now I am intrigued :- ) I am still confused what trouble does arise with this ? just AA ? or noise too ? But now I will definitely give it a go to see
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-10-26, 00:22:05
No trouble - infinite random samples mean you don't need filter. In the worst case, maybe light edges might get worse...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-10-26, 09:12:54
Actually, light edges getting worse is not a worst case, it is what will (from my own experience) happen. When i was doing Archviz a lot, i found out that rendering without filter is just a means of rendering longer/with more noise for no particular reason.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-10-26, 13:21:44

it looks like something like Xeon E5-1660 could be a way to go perhaps since I could fit two of those into one case.

Sorry, missed this. It's not possible to multi-socket E5-1xxx v1/v2 that's why they're so cheap. There is little to no advantage in getting Xeon 1xxx compared to i7 for our purposes, unless you want to use ECC rams and other small advantages of server platform, because the chip price/performance will be almost the same.


Yeah I figured there was something I missed since that particular CPU sounded pretty good :) Thanks for the insight.

Quote from: Juraj_Talcik
I have 3 currently. But like I said, that's not to be meant in distributed fashion, but each renders separately over night


That's a relief, I misunderstood and thought the actual computing time for your renders was like 30 hours! But enough tech talk I guess.. Didn't mean to go off topic - thanks for taking the time. Could we get back to you rendering all kinds of inspirational stuff? :P
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-10-26, 19:20:14
Actually, light edges getting worse is not a worst case, it is what will (from my own experience) happen. When i was doing Archviz a lot, i found out that rendering without filter is just a means of rendering longer/with more noise for no particular reason.

This is getting a bit too contradicting, so the sooner I try this, better. I had no light edges problem before.

Now, why would filtering work so differently in Corona compared to Vray ? It's absolutely unnecessary (even advised against in unclamped form, by Vlado himself) to use filter for stills, and it more oppositely, adds up to rendering time.




it looks like something like Xeon E5-1660 could be a way to go perhaps since I could fit two of those into one case.

Sorry, missed this. It's not possible to multi-socket E5-1xxx v1/v2 that's why they're so cheap. There is little to no advantage in getting Xeon 1xxx compared to i7 for our purposes, unless you want to use ECC rams and other small advantages of server platform, because the chip price/performance will be almost the same.


Yeah I figured there was something I missed since that particular CPU sounded pretty good :) Thanks for the insight.

Quote from: Juraj_Talcik
I have 3 currently. But like I said, that's not to be meant in distributed fashion, but each renders separately over night


That's a relief, I misunderstood and thought the actual computing time for your renders was like 30 hours! But enough tech talk I guess.. Didn't mean to go off topic - thanks for taking the time. Could we get back to you rendering all kinds of inspirational stuff? :P

Hey no problem, actually I enjoy discussing HW quite much. At the moment I am pondering the idea if it's worth give close-looped cooling systems a try or stay with giant 1kg Noctuas, which I have no problem with, apart from problematic  transportation.

Not much I can post now, we're still in NYC and work on too different stuff, nothing I could post. I hope to quickly give shape to the house I posted weeks ago when I come home next weekend. It was finished as commercial project, but I only post projects once I redo them slightly and render additional pictures.

Anyway, it's few weeks left to Alex Roman's Bit to the Lens, I guess this will be awesome Christmass for all.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 18:16:23
We've came back from NYC to find really moody autumn weather and I decided to revisit shortly this project to to re-render some images for publishing (mimicking the mood outside ) because I haven't felt satisfied with the rush in which I had to develop it month ago. We have very fond relationship to this project since we could develop the whole architecture, styling inside and all around. I will finally publish it very soon

This time, I decided to do full PT+PT (32), I expected it to be bit slower, but actually isn't, it's almost pretty fast for my standards :- ) Its 4k and after 4 hours, it was very clear, with exception for patches of very specular materials like metals in dark and some details. I left it nonetheless much longer, because I sleep a lot..

Notice the strange behaviour of vertical lines behind the glass ? that glass is regular thick glass, and I think the hybrid doesn't do it. There is no bump at all. No sure if error or feature..

On other hand, I am very satisfied with Rawalanche's sugestion to use 1.333 filter instead of 1.5. Slightly sharper. Haven't experienced much with no filter yer.
Tried changing internal resolution from 2 to 4, but didn't notice any change at all.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7327/10709552365_40c93a0816_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-06, 18:19:05
Nice composition but mmm, its too blue-ish and plastic. Just my feelings. Maybe you can try another HDR and softer filter ? Those interiors you poste here before were FAR better imo.
Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 18:22:17
Nice composition but mmm, its too blue-ish and plastic. Just my feelings. Maybe you can try another HDR and softer filter ? Those interiors you poste here before were FAR better imo.
Just my opinion.

Do you find the softer filter more plausible ? Hmm, tough choice.

It is blue :- ) But more of intention, I tried neutral and warm tones too, but I actually like this one. But I am interested in the plastic, so you can describe that more if you want
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-06, 18:26:39
do you mean the black lines behind the multiple glass panels in the right? I saw some other similar bugreport, but was never able to reproduce. If you could report it as bug with a simplified scene (just the glass + pillar geometry), it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 18:29:00
do you mean the black lines behind the multiple glass panels in the right? I saw some other similar bugreport, but was never able to reproduce. If you could report it as bug with a simplified scene (just the glass + pillar geometry), it would be appreciated.

I've seen it someone report it as well, don't remember the picture though. I will try.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-06, 18:35:17
Yes i prefer softer filters. Its my personal choice and im not talking about extreme soft filter of course.

And image looks plastic (in my eyes) but you like it and its most important, but i think you have far better images in this thread.
Sofa have too much faloff, bump on window frames looks weird and whole GI is flat. Maybe too much exposure, dunno. Its quite hard to comment images like this becase all its about our own taste. Im not hating this image, just trying to express my feelings. Thats all.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 18:41:30
Yes i prefer softer filters. Its my personal choice and im not talking about extreme soft filter of course.

And image looks plastic (in my eyes) but you like it and its most important, but i think you have far better images in this thread.
Sofa have too much faloff, bump on window frames looks weird and whole GI is flat. Maybe too much exposure, dunno. Its quite hard to comment images like this becase all its about our own taste. Im not hating this image, just express my feelings. Thats all.

I will try back the soft filter than, maybe again the 1.5 and 4 internal. Maybe at 4k res I don't require such sharpness. Can't make my head about this.

I agree with sofa, but maybe I even took it too far in post using local contrast. But I will tone it down in Max as well. It's tough balance, once I don't see the effect, I tend to slightly overdo it instead. Pendulum.

The windows frame I would defend instead, there is no bumb, I rarely use bumb at all, only on fabrics. Even the specular maps are toned down with colors, (it's 0.7 reflex, 0.3 for gloss). It's supposed to be brushed eloxed metal, not black paint. Maybe I should go even subtler ? I though this is subtle :- D But I have tendency to overdo things.

Flat GI has more to do with this perspective, it is all-around surrounded by glass and this HDRi does not have any light direction, it's pure overcast. But it's more flat than I wanted for my taste too. Will rethink the strategy further.

While lot is down to personal taste, I think purely personal opinion has same value as objective measure. Both provoke to further rethink.

Lol, no need to apologise for expressing opinion (I would never apologise for anything like that, bit problematic).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-06, 21:12:42
Jagged lines behind glass - isn't this related to internal resolution @ 4? I remember having some issues with internal resolution higher than 2. Can you set internal res to 2 and region-render that strange lines?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-06, 21:13:58
Jagged lines behind glass - isn't this related to internal resolution @ 4? I remember having some issues with internal resolution higher than 2. Can you set internal res to 2 and region-render that strange lines?

Internal res should help i think. Its like rendering double size and then downsizing it back.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-06, 21:26:47
it should have no effect. Anyone with strange aliasing behing glass, please report it as a bug, and provide the scene.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-06, 21:28:26
it should have no effect. Anyone with strange aliasing behing glass, please report it as a bug, and provide the scene.

Are you sure ? I`ll test it in free time anyway.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-06, 21:33:13
well, it should definitely not have this effect.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 21:38:52
Jagged lines behind glass - isn't this related to internal resolution @ 4? I remember having some issues with internal resolution higher than 2. Can you set internal res to 2 and region-render that strange lines?

This is misunderstanding, the above image is internal 2. But I currently tested 1,2 and even 4, it has no effect. Even the type of glass has no effect, I tried with hybrid only. It happens no matter what camera I use. not sure if it's even bad AA, it's warped, almost like bump happening with very high frequency detail.

I will try to provide a scene to Keymaster.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-06, 22:20:08
Ok, sorry, didn't mean to spread confusion.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-06, 22:35:20
Now I am home so I can only guess, but oddly it didn't happen before. And as far as I know, I only changed PT+HD into PT+PT. Will pack the scene tomorrow in office and send it to Keymaster
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: poko on 2013-11-07, 01:36:48
No, I apply curves and some small stuff within MagicBullet.

The project is almost complete, I'll publish it soon :- )

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/965964_389301724507641_1660633787_o.jpg)

For me bedding looks awesome.
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-07, 03:03:54
For me bedding looks awesome.

Thank you. If you're interested in marvelousdesigner, we did tutorial for this exact bed in 3dArtist year ago (it's easy to get).

(http://behance.vo.llnwd.net/profiles18/843449/projects/7009863/hd_458ba032acb5b0a5b7d5ff867929f2b3.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: poko on 2013-11-07, 13:51:00
O thanks. I try to find ;)
I saw animation with this bed.
How did you achieve flickering? Is Brute Force?
Thx.
PO.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-07, 16:08:42
It was IR+LC only, LC was precomputed with anim mode, and IR was computed every 8 frames originally but I later re-timed the animation though Chronos plugin, so it was even less, almost one IR map per second of animation ? Too many tricks, which resulted in artifacts. Heavy DOF was also necessary, because it would not clean up noise completely, I had just 20 minutes per frame and 2 computers, and still took 2 weeks heh. Animations are no joke for power..
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: poko on 2013-11-07, 16:35:27
A ok.
20 min. per frame is quite ok.
I hope Corona can do it faster without flickering:)
Best.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-07, 21:28:12

I hope Corona can do it faster without flickering:)


With pathtracing GI in interiors, I seriously doubt that. With heavy interpolated and precomputed IR, yes.  It was fullHD, on overclocked 3930k (almost 4,4Ghz), some very heavy IR, shitty AA and there was still noise that I had to live with.

I don't think flickering is an particular issue with either renderer with static scene and slow moving camera. It's just walkthough, thankfully that's all I do :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: poko on 2013-11-07, 22:13:45
We did one commercial with interior rendering where we have moved camera and all object in scene transforming. That was challenge.
We try many tricks to reduce flickering (not talking about noise). So why I'm looking for renderer where I don't have to worry about precalculation, cache, save, load, render again.
Why this is not automatically? When I have to render still just check still, when I need to render camera movement-check this option, when I need to render animated character with camera moving just check this option or in ideal word soft knows that camera move or character is dancing end make proposal settings. Is that really problem for good programmer do this? Or maybe is not necessary or not possible?
I'm just asking. I don't know anything about programming. I want just get clean render :C
Ok, ufff.
All the best.
PO
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-07, 22:31:40
Heh I completely understand you and feel the same :- ) If someone really wants one button solution, I am the one. I just want to create and have fun in virtual world.

I consider technicalities very important and put great care into them, but I find no pleasure in it.

Well, after all, that's why I am in with Corona :- ) It does what I expect of it ! Atleast for still images now.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-08, 02:53:43
Well, the smudgy eges are prevalent in every render I do now with this scene. Interestingly enough, it did not happen before in this scene, and I am not really aware of anything I would change.
I did some tests, changing PT+PT to Pt+HD, PT samples from 16 to 128, max ray depth (never touched it though, was just curious), IOR, lot more bunch of stuff, nothing would change it.
So tomorrow I'll definitely bring myself to pack up the scene and upload it. It's buffling me. I found the thread with previous user reporting it, but indeed, it was his only post on the forum.


(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7356/10731850714_c2fb472524_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-11-08, 09:51:01
I had similar problem long time ago... embree loses precision through refraction if scene bounding box is too big... I would try selecting precise instead of fast in embree tris. option in debug settings.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-08, 14:56:19
I had similar problem long time ago... embree loses precision through refraction if scene bounding box is too big... I would try selecting precise instead of fast in embree tris. option in debug settings.

Hmm, both interesting thoughts, I will try both solutions. I am not aware I changed anything concerning scene size but I will definitely tripple check that.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Rawalanche on 2013-11-08, 16:39:26
Even if you did, corona still should not limit users in how large their scenes can be. Try if precise embree mode helps. If not, then it's a bug, if yes, then Keymaster will have to do some optimizing.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-08, 16:43:03
do not speculate, post the goddamn scene instead! ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Freakaz on 2013-11-12, 10:14:16
Hi Juraj, nice images, can I ask you what do you use for floor and wall plank variations? It somehow looks like floor generator with multitexture, but for me multitexture is not working in Corona, somehow it just refuses to use more than one texture for the mix. Could you share some knowledge on this subject?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-12, 13:02:56
Hi Juraj, nice images, can I ask you what do you use for floor and wall plank variations? It somehow looks like floor generator with multitexture, but for me multitexture is not working in Corona, somehow it just refuses to use more than one texture for the mix. Could you share some knowledge on this subject?

Hi Freakaz, it's not multitexture or anything procedural. In the parisian project, it was baked-in multi-texture (one large 12 000px square texture, that repeated on 8meters I think, so nothing noticeable), here it was simple unwrap (I only had 6 or so planks from Dinesen) and slight manual moving around of one texture again (all 6 planks next to each other).

This is actually preferable workflow for me compared to multitexture because I don't like to extract specular maps from diffuse by using ColorCorrect (either Max default or the plugin, they both suck hard). I can prepare these maps more precisely in Photoshop.

It's not that flexible for all, but sufficient for floors.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Freakaz on 2013-11-12, 13:22:53
Thanks, looks like i'll have to use the good old Manual way fow now :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-16, 15:03:43
Lot of new stuff. I had some time inbetween work to somehow finish this, I think around 12 pictures or so, that I'll post on Monday.

Peter Guthrie asked me to guest write some Tips and Tricks for Corona beginners and that should go live pretty soon as well.

And last but not least, I will be teaching full making (which was the original purpose of this project originally, before it became commercial, and than hobby again) of to Architecture students in our local city at Architecture faculty to students, for free. They lost some really lector, since lot of them are our friends, we decided with Veronika to spend some Fridays showing people stuff how to get up and running with vizuals for their school projects.

I will still finish my regular online (free) tutorial, but I suck, I am slow, I am unconcetrated and Intimidated with the scope. But yeah, I guess, hopefully decently "soon" as well.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7431/10885402915_9aa99e00cf_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-16, 15:49:40
awsm! You can try to compose swimming person into that pool, should be amazing detail.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-16, 19:33:53
Juraj, is there any website with free resources you would recommend?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-16, 21:09:19
Juraj, is there any website with free resources you would recommend?

Of course, a lot, or atleast partially free. But what do you mean by "resources" ? Knowledge, tutorials, models, textures ? Everything :- ) ? So I won't write something stupid.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-16, 23:09:54
By resources I meant textures/backgrounds/models. Usually the good old rule applies: expensive or shitty. :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-16, 23:34:16
By resources I meant textures/backgrounds/models. Usually the good old rule applies: expensive or shitty. :)

Yep, I agree with that perfectly. I don't buy many resources to be honest, just few things here and there that I really love from Bertrand Benoit. I also love CG-Source HDRis.

All the textures I use are from CGTextures (50 euros per year I think for hi-res) and Arroway.

As far as models go, 3dSky/3ddd is... funny place and it is free if you donate models. 1/100 model is really gem, the rest incredible shit. It's like going to thrift store for clothes. Pretty adventurous experience :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: yagi on 2013-11-18, 10:19:30
2 questions : i know its lit with a single Hdri but where the heck did you get such Hdri and how did you use it in corona in details pls......awesome lighting
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: RolandB on 2013-11-18, 11:23:57
2 questions : i know its lit with a single Hdri but where the heck did you get such Hdri and how did you use it in corona in details pls......awesome lighting
Yes same question as yagi. I use to play with PG HDRI, especialy the 0902 Overcast, but I never have those lighting as you are.
Thanks in advance for the tutorials about your amazing and excellent work Juraj.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-18, 11:57:51
Ok, I'll write up on that, but give me a day or two, it takes quite some concentration for me to do that well :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-19, 23:14:40
Uff, I posted the project finally, but I have very little energy left to also post it on forum at the moment. Swarmed with work.. atleast there is bacon and cola.

Here is link to chosen 16 visuals on BEHANCE : http://bit.ly/18lw3Qq (http://bit.ly/18lw3Qq)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/10951576526_517268b0f9_o.jpg)



Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: st.germain on 2013-11-20, 10:53:45
Respect! Looking forward to see some "making of" . . . . especially making of shaders . . . .thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: peterguthrie on 2013-11-20, 10:56:31
gorgeous images Juraj! so many nice small details and perfect materials.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Freakaz on 2013-11-20, 12:06:04
So, it come out as a realy nice set of images :) Can't wait to see some tips and learn some things.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: yagi on 2013-11-20, 20:13:32
your images are beyond belief. can only hope to be this good.....or maybe better? i applaud you sir
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-20, 20:46:19
your images are beyond belief. can only hope to be this good.....or maybe better? i applaud you sir

:- ) It's definitely not hard to be better. I hope I can help with that with stuff I plan to contially publish. But the damn time and concentration...I only feel relaxed in gym these months, otherwise it's neverending circle and I spend more time doing management than 3D (which isn't bad but I still suck at it)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: ondrike on 2013-11-20, 20:58:56
perfect renders !!! mindblowing !!! Can you tell please from where is black wood texture on facade? I need something similar in the project I´m working on right now. Thanks and once again - perfect job !!!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-20, 23:15:13
Can you tell please from where is black wood texture on facade? I need something similar in the project I´m working on right now.


It's not the best texture, but we all know how hard is it to get wood textures :- ) This was is from cgtextures.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5509/10968661483_f66ab9805a_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: RolandB on 2013-11-21, 10:20:20
Nothing else, no displacment texture ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Jens_Gehrcken on 2013-11-21, 12:47:52
Really like this thread... should have watched it earlier :) but thanks to your post on facebook/ronen i finally found some insight to that amazing corona project.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-21, 13:21:27
Nothing else, no displacment texture ?

Nope, because it is mapped to real chamfered geometry, it's more effiecient and precise. It's just not using multitexture.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: ondrike on 2013-11-21, 19:04:09
Thank you Ďuri for showing your materials !

Cheers from SVK :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-21, 22:35:31
Thank you Ďuri for showing your materials !

Cheers from SVK :)

You're welcome :- ).

_______________

Hey guys, I am gonna continue next week, Wednesday, bit too busy
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-22, 01:51:49
Tomorrow will be funky day, because we decided to teach for free for few Fridays until Christmass at local Architecture faculty, FA STUBA, mostly showing architecture students how to fast and efficiently visualize their studio projects. Not sure what to expect of this..bit crazy right now, considering I barely have time to sit down due to work.

Tomorrow Veronika will start with modeling from simplified plans of this project. Since it will be in slovak it will be worthless to film, but maybe some application to record desktop ? Could be later uploaded to youtube with post commentary and subtitles added. (disclaimer, we don't actually plan any workshops or anything people do now, it's just new experience and lot of these architects are Veronika's classmates and friends, all we do will stay free and online, just like I like it)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7459/10986303735_3b78f6a7cf_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: ondrike on 2013-11-22, 09:52:04
sounds perfect !! pity, that I´m not in BA, omg !! When we lived there no seminars like that wasn´t there :( Don´t you plan trip near BB? :)

btw really good free utility for recording screen is http://camstudio.org/ (http://camstudio.org/)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: RolandB on 2013-11-22, 11:03:56
Come here in France Juraj, we will be a lot to learn !
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-11-22, 13:20:36
Hi Juraj,

just wanted to thank you for taking the time to talk hardware in the middle of all your work - even if you said you enjoy talking about it! I bought a new rig, I first had a Xeon rig in mind but settled with one pretty much like yours. Even the leap from 24GB ram to 32GB does wonders (was gonna go for 64GB but they had only one kit ready), let alone the computing power compared to my old i920! So yeah, thanks, your posts were informative.

I love your new renders.. you seem awful busy and it's obvious you are a perfectionist - keep on posting and don't burn yourself out!

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-22, 17:11:30
I am glad you're happy with powerful computer, it does make a night and day difference to comfort of work :- ).

Ah, we did first 3 hours of teaching. Oh boy, who would expect it would go so slow :- ) but it was awesome experience. But I don't blame them, getting around the very basics of Max, the cursed SNAPPING is indeed a nightmare. But learning proper habits go long way in getting hang of things. I think next week I will chime in and show some speed-modelling in Max to show the true flexibility and robust workflow so they don't all go back to Sketchup :- ). (funky stuff, it took me 6 months...to get completely away from Sketchup, which I loved but it started to be burden to more complex and clean stuff I needed to do, pure SubDivision modelling and quad topologies, but Veronika started straight with Max, and up to this day, is still 2-3 times faster, because she is wired much more with the poly modelling logic).

But since we got so little ahead, it's not problem to re-record in like 10 minutes for Veronika in english, do some basic subtitles and upload to youtube, once she has bit of time to get around Camtasia. This is the time when our special secret, my brother, and IT maniac, comes on scene and handles affairs. I ain't got no nerves for that.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7413/10995513145_17b8cecee0_o.jpg)

Back to work now and then beer time in city

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-23, 23:34:55
I've cleaned this thread of unnecessary tests and render settings. No one will be confused further, and everyone will be happy. I won't post any further either and take break.
Cheers
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-23, 23:49:55
oh for fucks sake... what did just happen? I am to lazy to go back and try to find out who insulted whom.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-23, 23:52:59
oh for fucks sake... what did just happen? I am to lazy to go back and try to find out who insulted whom.

lol, I think all is just fine ;- ) But I will not post things that will create controversy and ridicule for anyone. Now I cleaned things up a bit, so nothing can be argued about, anywhere and I think it's for better.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-23, 23:56:00
There is beautiful new inspirative project by Bertrand and I think it's worth more to go admire it than continue discussint this on forum.

He's back to full architecture..and it's beautiful as ever.

http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2013/11/23/la-maison-de-verre/
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: khoscorona on 2013-11-28, 07:00:55
great and what is you machine. render times?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-29, 02:16:24
great and what is you machine. render times?

Render times are long and machines are expensive :- ) Check few pages back, they are regular i7 3930/4930k, few of them, it's budget scenario for now.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-29, 02:21:27
If anyone was bored and wanted to watch something educative, we already started posting the videos online, but for now, they are in slovak language. They will be re-voiced fully in english after they are all complete, in early February. By that time, there should be around 20 videos and around 20 hours of free material.
We create them and publish them after our Friday's classes at Uni are over, so far there are 2 basic modelling videos.

[so disclaimer: might only hold value for total beginners right now, but eventually will go very complex, and until February only Slovak voice (Veronika and me, plus some of our modelers for SubD), in February English voice (again us) plus english subtitles ]

Just wanted to put it up in case some slovaks/czech/people who don't care about voice would look it up.

We'll supply full files for every stage by then too, right now, if someone wants the Cad files, just write me or maybe I'll post a link. It's just basic stuff Veronika drawn in AutoCad to simplify it.
At the moment it's only HD1280px, but english version will come on my VimeoPro so it will show in its original fullHD quality.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: RolandB on 2013-11-29, 08:47:22
Thanks a lot Veronika and Juraj, you are the best !
Edit : I've downloaded the videos... I don't understand slovak but I like the Veronika's voice, so I let the sound on :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-11-29, 12:38:35
You guys rock. Have a great weekend!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-29, 17:38:38
Thanks a lot Veronika and Juraj, you are the best !
Edit : I've downloaded the videos... I don't understand slovak but I like the Veronika's voice, so I let the sound on :)

Haha,I'll tell her, she's extremely self-consious about her voice. Might have to buy more wine.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-29, 19:35:25
getting hammered is certainly a good way to do a tutorial :D

RolandB: All Slovak women I know have sexy voice. It's the language...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-29, 22:27:22
I think English subtitles would be enough. Do an English voiceover only if you want it to be more "professional".
One note: the voice is veeeery quiet!

btw. Slovak/Czech language sounds hilarious for Polish speakers and from what I've heard vice versa. These languages are similar but have subtle differences that make me smile, for example the way you say "metricky system" or "maxu" as a case of max. In Polish we probably would say "system metryczny" and "maxa", hope it also sounds funny for you guys.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-29, 22:30:53
Extremely, there is also a shitton of jokes about polish language :D.


And your word for "search" means "to fuck".
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-11-29, 22:33:47
Extremely, there is also a shitton of jokes about polish language :D.


And your word for "search" means "to fuck".

No, your word "fuck" means "to search".
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: lacilaci on 2013-11-30, 00:15:47
Extremely, there is also a shitton of jokes about polish language :D.


And your word for "search" means "to fuck".

No, your word "fuck" means "to search".

LOL i like this thread... :D

Juraj, nice work with those tutorials.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-11-30, 01:06:55

btw. Slovak/Czech language sounds hilarious for Polish speakers and from what I've heard vice versa. These languages are similar but have subtle differences that make me smile, for example the way you say "metricky system" or "maxu" as a case of max. In Polish we probably would say "system metryczny" and "maxa", hope it also sounds funny for you guys.

Well it does, but oddly, the only time I mentioned this to one polish guy, he replied something along "and you guys sound retarded" :- D Well, that was though the only unfriendly polish guy I've met, rest were very nice.

Nah I think we're still do the voiceover in english, it's not big deal and does make good impression imho if done well. I might do only english on my tutorial parts, since I am oddly way more fluent english speaker than slovak, from the time in USA I feel bit more laidback, slovak is too serious language.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-30, 01:11:07
Well it does, but oddly, the only time I mentioned this to one polish guy, he replied something along "and you guys sound retarded"
HAvent the guy listened to rytmus recently? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-30, 11:55:58
I think English subtitles would be enough. Do an English voiceover only if you want it to be more "professional".
One note: the voice is veeeery quiet!

btw. Slovak/Czech language sounds hilarious for Polish speakers and from what I've heard vice versa. These languages are similar but have subtle differences that make me smile, for example the way you say "metricky system" or "maxu" as a case of max. In Polish we probably would say "system metryczny" and "maxa", hope it also sounds funny for you guys.

Polish language is very similiar to slovak dialect which you can find in eastern part of Slovakia.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-11-30, 12:06:54
you mean polish = gypsies? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2013-11-30, 12:09:29
you mean polish = gypsies? :D

No. Gypsies have totally different language. I meant eastern dialect. Slovakia have a lot of dialects which are based on different location. Not sure if you have same thing in CZ.


Sorry for OT.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: lacilaci on 2013-11-30, 12:36:25
you mean polish = gypsies? :D

You mean eastern Slovakia = gypsies? :D ehm, ehm...
Anyways, you can't expect totaly different language when we're all Slavic right?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: eungen on 2013-12-01, 10:54:37
Language Gypsy is an Indian dialect mixed with local elements from the migration continues to this unbearable populations.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-12-01, 14:53:16
Let's get back to topic, shall we? :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Jens_Gehrcken on 2013-12-03, 16:20:46
is it still about corona?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-04, 00:30:35
:- D Alright guys, some politically uncorrect debate on semantics is cool, I guess I need to upload more what I do in 3D :- ). (there is btw 3rd video on Vimeo, and this friday I begin with rendering...)

We have few projects at the moment, some big, some small, and this is the small one. Incidentally, both of them are very colorful (well, or colorful for my standard :- D ) Here some test crop I did to validate if I can go this far. Poliform and BB Italia :- )

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7399/11197204666_dc435a41e4_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2013-12-04, 00:33:56
ok, now that we had our fun, do you want the OT debate to be deleted from the thread?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-04, 00:37:22
ok, now that we had our fun, do you want the OT debate to be deleted from the thread?

If it would go for 20 pages I think that would be weird but I don't think it matters :- ) It still aplied to topic somehow
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: vkiuru on 2013-12-04, 10:01:38
Looks very fresh! It's silly getting stuck in details but what attracts me the most is the contrast of light and shadow areas in the yellow chair :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: claudyo on 2013-12-06, 10:16:20
Hy Juraj, Apreciate your works, very inspired.
 But I have few questions about Corona.
I'm new to Corona as well to 3dsmax (went from a C4D enviroment). Tell me how u make the hdri to be seen from inside. I working on a scene where I use an PG hdri to light the scene, but when I look tru the windows it see burn out, I mean it's ok on the inside lighting, but I want to see the outside too. In vray, I often use a sphere with an hdri material aplied and use an compositing tag to uit to not use his gi and shadows, but that the vray works. tryng to see a tutorial on the web but didn't find anything usefull. And see in your last work that u managed to do what I want. Probably is an dumb question, but better asq before make mistake. and for exterior? it work hdri's to make lighting, or its better cun and sky?
Thanks in advice!
Claudiu
P.S. hdri aplied in the enviroment in the corona settings.
 Apologies for my gramatical mistakes language.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: moadr on 2013-12-06, 11:28:30
Hy Juraj, Apreciate your works, very inspired.
 But I have few questions about Corona.
I'm new to Corona as well to 3dsmax (went from a C4D enviroment). Tell me how u make the hdri to be seen from inside. I working on a scene where I use an PG hdri to light the scene, but when I look tru the windows it see burn out, I mean it's ok on the inside lighting, but I want to see the outside too. In vray, I often use a sphere with an hdri material aplied and use an compositing tag to uit to not use his gi and shadows, but that the vray works. tryng to see a tutorial on the web but didn't find anything usefull. And see in your last work that u managed to do what I want. Probably is an dumb question, but better asq before make mistake. and for exterior? it work hdri's to make lighting, or its better cun and sky?
Thanks in advice!
Claudiu
P.S. hdri aplied in the enviroment in the corona settings.
 Apologies for my gramatical mistakes language.

I'm not Juraj, but I hope I understand your questions right and can answer them :)

If I understand it correctly, you also have Vray installed, so you can use a vrayHDRI in your environment slot. I prefer this method, because as a former vray user I find myself confident with the settings, that vray gives you (and it works flawlessly with Corona also). So if you want to see more of the exterior from inside, you should decrease the overall multiplier of your hdri and play with the camera inside (if you use vray physical camera, you can decrease the shutter speed or increase ISO). It depends on the HDRI itself, but maybe you should adjust the levels of it, desaturate it a bit, decrease the gamma to get the result that you want. But you should take it into consideration, that if you would like to have a nice-shiny-bright interior and a photorealistic image, than it's normal, that your exterior is burnt out. If you want to see more of it, from the inside, try to play with the mood, set up an overcasted environment for example, than it can be right.

As for the question if hdris or the sun+sky system is better, I think it depends on the situation and the mood you would like to achieve. None of them is better than the other. If you are making an interior shot, a sun+sky system can work for you, but for example if you have an exterior, a hdri can help you out with the surrounding environment and with the reflections it provides.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-06, 17:11:56
Hy Juraj, Apreciate your works, very inspired.
 But I have few questions about Corona.
I'm new to Corona as well to 3dsmax (went from a C4D enviroment). Tell me how u make the hdri to be seen from inside. I working on a scene where I use an PG hdri to light the scene, but when I look tru the windows it see burn out, I mean it's ok on the inside lighting, but I want to see the outside too. In vray, I often use a sphere with an hdri material aplied and use an compositing tag to uit to not use his gi and shadows, but that the vray works. tryng to see a tutorial on the web but didn't find anything usefull. And see in your last work that u managed to do what I want. Probably is an dumb question, but better asq before make mistake. and for exterior? it work hdri's to make lighting, or its better cun and sky?
Thanks in advice!
Claudiu
P.S. hdri aplied in the enviroment in the corona settings.
 Apologies for my gramatical mistakes language.

It's partly because I tone-map the environment a slightly more than the inside in Photoshop using alpha mask ;- ) But I say, it;s only partly and not done for all pictures. It's something around 1EV more darker in the end, still subtle and containing the burn (which is correct and photorealistic) The reason also why burn is so minimal here because the windows are so large and many, and the interior has only bright materials, making very little difference in luminance levels between indoor and outdoor, it's not possible to have this in space with smaller windows.
It's very specific for this example of architecture, it won't apply globally to all situations.

Vray works the same way, the sphere is very wrong aproach there as well, you can just create two domelight or one domelight, and one override,etc.. but not create lightmaterial on sphere. It's not 1999 :- ) As keymaster would mention, it's much harder to sample.

The most correct way to go around this is in post-production, again, just like in photography.

I use HDRi if I can get the benefits of it, like reflections, environment,etc..so it makes sense to use it almost for all exteriors. There is almost no disandvantage to HDRi, in Corona it seems to sample equally fast compared to Sun. (this is definitely not true for IBL lighting in Vray if it also contributes to GI, domelight is just...weird concept)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: maru on 2013-12-06, 17:46:16
In Corona you can also use one HDR map for environment lighting and another (for example slightly darker) for background.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-06, 18:37:20
In Corona you can also use one HDR map for environment lighting and another (for example slightly darker) for background.

I have this override setup at few shots, but most of the time I avoid it, as I like to have the opportunity to keep it untouched if it looks fine. Quick alpha correction in PS is faster and most efficient solution (and it also seem avoiding "fakes" can yield some benefits in Corona for now)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Asker on 2013-12-07, 12:08:14
Hi Juraj, I want to ask you if you are going to upload next tutorials from STU. I am newbie in 3ds max and it's very helpful.  Thank u :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-07, 15:08:08
Hi Juraj, I want to ask you if you are going to upload next tutorials from STU. I am newbie in 3ds max and it's very helpful.  Thank u :)

Hi asker, we had third lesson just yesterday, which was first when I spoke about cameras, composition, lighting. I think I'll speak directly in english and make the 4th video tomorrow,
as well give Peter Guthrie those long promised tips article. We just live in parallel time existence :- ) So it's not about uploading, but, making it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-09, 22:33:15
I've uploaded some free 3D models on our site, and plan to update it more frequently !

http://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,2201.msg16382.html#new

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/11296724284_f57a576869_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/11309442823_1cbb1eed39_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/11309359986_e572e67d60_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: peterguthrie on 2013-12-13, 16:28:06
as well give Peter Guthrie those long promised tips article. We just live in parallel time existence :- ) So it's not about uploading, but, making it.

Hurry up! ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Elviz on 2013-12-15, 19:06:58
Hello Juraj

Awesome stuff is going in this thread !

Wanted to ask you, how often if at all you use Render Elements in post production process (particularly ID based adjustments).

Thank you.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2013-12-15, 22:58:17
Hello Juraj

Awesome stuff is going in this thread !

Wanted to ask you, how often if at all you use Render Elements in post production process (particularly ID based adjustments).

Thank you.

Outside of Z-depth, almost never. ID-Based, never.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-01-05, 18:47:10
I am having pretty miserable time. 2 years using Vray day by day, thinking I know it all and it's now that it's failing me in very complicated (GI...) scene. I swear, this might be last time I use it with those goddamn splotches and whatnot, just can't afford brute force in interior animation and the IR behaves so idiotically randomly and ugly. Wonder if the 3.0 is so miracolously faster in BF but doubt it. I desperately need to finish this and earn my whole-year rest.

In meantime, Veronika had much more enjoyable experience with Corona with her project. We hit render button, and next day got nice pictures. And maybe if she had time to setup the spotlights differently than actually having emissive material on small part in bulb (the crazy way...) it could probably render even fast. Outside of DOF, that had to be "enhanced" in PS with some quick masking = )

This year's gonna be full Corona for us, for everything, not only stills. I am pretty sure we're gonna have great time.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/11779884353_d1e24db175_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: astudio on 2014-01-05, 20:28:19
He-he Juraj. I was sure that mirroring of textures is not your method. But I'm just jealous.

Looks too cool for commercial project.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-01-05, 20:43:51
He-he Juraj. I was sure that mirroring of textures is not your method. But I'm just jealous.

Looks too cool for commercial project.

I didn't mapped that :- D I would make sure it's not that obvious heh.
But yeah, mirroring is pretty much necessary when the sample is too small in physical scope.

It's not commercial though ! This is Veronika's small school project. I won't be able to post any commercial stuff for quite some time.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: londonvisuals on 2014-01-05, 23:50:12
Looks a bit blown-out, other than that, light distribution is nice :)
And BTW Juraj, I urge You to be a man of Your word and share those long promised tutorials everyone are quietly waiting for :) !
I have a feeling that since You are less present here, the forum got somehow quiet ;) don't abandon us dude :D!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-01-05, 23:51:22
Looks a bit blown-out, other than that, light distribution is nice :)
And BTW Juraj, I urge You to be a man of Your word and share those long promised tutorials everyone are quietly waiting for :) !
I have a feeling that since You are less present here, the forum got somehow quiet ;) don't abandon us dude :D!

Xmas bro.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-01-05, 23:56:04
Looks a bit blown-out, other than that, light distribution is nice :)
And BTW Juraj, I urge You to be a man of Your word and share those long promised tutorials everyone are quietly waiting for :) !
I have a feeling that since You are less present here, the forum got somehow quiet ;) don't abandon us dude :D!

Xmas bro.

I wish I had Christmass :- ) Work work work. Stress. I am happy when I can snatch a Steam game of Age of Empires 2 with friends. Not even beer time.

But I am not abandoning anything, everything that isn't priority (family and well-payed projects) just...fades around. But I always hold up to word. So, don't give up on me too :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: londonvisuals on 2014-01-06, 04:54:35
yea, I perfectly understand, dont take the above too serious ;) hope you'll be able to take a break soon Juraj.
Super long periods of work without a proper vacations have a strong drawback, leading to 0 motivation for work.
Well for me at least, hope you won't face this scenario :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 14:37:11
Hi Guys,

in bit of help. Maybe I am just slow these days, but here it goes:

Small project, early preview, don't pay attention much, but check the 'glass' on terrace. Do you see the shadow it is projecting ? Isn't it bit dense ?

The thing is, the glass on terrace, is the very same glass as in interior (absolutely basic 1/1 reflex/refract glass in Corona, just those two ticks, nothing else, no thin or caustics), but in interior it looks fine/correct.
Render settings are default, completely default except for resolution. A7.1, public version. Sun/Sky, the background is in PS, there was nothing special, it's suuper basic.

Is something going on ? Or no.... ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: DeadClown on 2014-08-14, 14:52:44
If all is set up correctly I'd strip down the scene, upload it and log it as a bug =/  Looks like one to me.

You could, just as a test, increase MSI a lot (or set it to 0) to make sure it's not a clamping issue - which can happen in specific cases.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: nauticus25 on 2014-08-14, 14:57:38
To help isolate the problem, what do the terrace glass shadows look like if you render it with the interior glass hidden?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: romullus on 2014-08-14, 15:08:57
What caught my eye immediately, is shadow's shape, there's no way that sunlight could cast such shadows. Is there any other light sources in your scene?

p.s. i think reflectivity of your glass mat, is way over the top.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-08-14, 15:14:21
Something looks familiar here...background is random pano from google images, right ? I think i used same pano back in 2010-2011 for one quick project :D

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3936104/final%20cam%201.jpg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 15:19:43
YES :- D Btw was googled by Veronika but I liked it. But don't worry, this is very early preview, I will find something more sufficient in some stock photo hopefully, I don't even really feel save this would hold as 'fair use' (don't even know which one yet...any suggestion?).
It needed to be tropical and city :- )

Nice image ! (but that sofa...but of well)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-08-14, 15:23:10
I dont like the image.. and sofa, well...it was for Turkish client.

Regarding that background. As far as i remember, it was PITA to integrate it properly due to distortion and weird colors. And back in 2010, i was using Indigo so there were some problems even with alpha maps lol...old good times damn.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 15:28:30
To help isolate the problem, what do the terrace glass shadows look like if you render it with the interior glass hidden?

Yep, should have done that. But doing other scene now, so will get back and do some guess-work.

What caught my eye immediately, is shadow's shape, there's no way that sunlight could cast such shadows. Is there any other light sources in your scene?

p.s. i think reflectivity of your glass mat, is way over the top.


It does look strange completely, but really, there is just single Sun. (there is second but it's OFF, checked, but maybe it still affects Sky somehow, it's wrong to keep two of them?)
The reflectivity, it's regular glass with proper IOR, so the reflections are because I rendered against black override for comping and kept the background more visible that should, it's for preview, I will keep it much brighter and hidden, which
will lower the reflectivity back.
But yes, you're correct in that it doesn't look good and right :- ) I just wanted to only investigate the trouble, image doesn't look good yet.

{{Romullus: should I render against Black only in directly visible and refraction ? Or all 3 ? Maybe the reflectivity override to black is causing what seems like too much reflective glass; off-topic}}
Lot of thanks for feedback guys. I'll get back
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-08-14, 15:42:16
Are you sure that you disabled absorbtion ? Or any SSS related settings ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Ondra on 2014-08-14, 15:58:06
Does the glass have caustics turned on or off?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-08-14, 16:01:53
He wrote that no thin/no caustics...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 16:06:28
It's off. Default CoronaMat with full reflect and refract. The same instance of material is on interior glass and that one seems to behave naturally.

It also has multi-texture outside and rendered using distributed. I will try without one or either (and then upgrade to 2.0 mt).but first try the suggestion without interior, to see if it's there even without multiple refraction going on.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: romullus on 2014-08-14, 16:51:01
Does it have multiple material ID's? If so, it can be this bug: https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,4943.0.html


{{Romullus: should I render against Black only in directly visible and refraction ? Or all 3 ? Maybe the reflectivity override to black is causing what seems like too much reflective glass; off-topic}}
Lot of thanks for feedback guys. I'll get back

Sorry, couln't say, i don't do comping much. But for glass i go no more than 0.25-0.3 reflectivity. I find it more realistic than usual 0.9-1.0
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 17:10:06
The super-reflectivness is because I did black override in reflection too, without it looks correct :- ). It's my mistake.

I disagree with the lower reflectivity, real glass used in windows (without any foil on top), the regular soda-lime, is 8perc. reflective which in the CGI model like Corona/Vray/Scanline/etc.. is represented oppositely,
full 1.0 (but almost everything is 1 at grazing...) at grazing/90 angle (and mostly 0.04 at 0) with fresnel of ~1.5, so the average will be the same.

http://glassproperties.com/refractive_index/ general properties

http://refractiveindex.info/?shelf=glass&book=soda-lime&page=Rubin-clear  //exact sola lime glass properties and its reflective curve


I will check those IDs though.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 17:39:17
FOUND IT !

It was indeed multi-texture bug. But the bug remains even after updating to Multitexture 2. It's not affected by DR, the bug manifests even if single machine does it.

Should I send the scene to you Keymaster ? Once you have time, I can live without MT for now.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: romullus on 2014-08-14, 20:12:05
I don't think it's related to multi-texture specifically, but to multi materials and refraction overall.

The super-reflectivness is because I did black override in reflection too, without it looks correct :- ). It's my mistake.

I disagree with the lower reflectivity, real glass used in windows (without any foil on top), the regular soda-lime, is 8perc. reflective which in the CGI model like Corona/Vray/Scanline/etc.. is represented oppositely,
full 1.0 (but almost everything is 1 at grazing...) at grazing/90 angle (and mostly 0.04 at 0) with fresnel of ~1.5, so the average will be the same.

http://glassproperties.com/refractive_index/ general properties

http://refractiveindex.info/?shelf=glass&book=soda-lime&page=Rubin-clear  //exact sola lime glass properties and its reflective curve


I will check those IDs though.


Is this means that reflection level value in CoronaMtl defines reflectivity strength at grazing angle rather than at 0°?
I don't have deep knowledge in materials, but i certainly willing to learn more. I've learn from here (https://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/feeding-a-physical-based-lighting-mode/) that almost all dielectrics should use about 0.2-0.3 reflectivity and metals 0.6-1.0, so i tend to stick to that rule. I would love to hear your opinion, because you know what you're talking.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-08-14, 20:36:27

specular reflectance of the material which is the value of Fresnel reflectance at 0° (reflectance at normal incidence) : F(0^{\circ})  [1]. The term F(0^{\circ})  is what we call specular color for our physically based shading model.


They do define all this reflectivity based on normal incidence, but not directly from those overall albedo values, as those include both diffuse and specular reflectivity.
Up to this time, I am still confused how to directly translate their data into our model, and closest and easiest is just the reflective curve for materials where that is available. But beyond that, hmm.
And that curve always goes from [specular reflectivity at 0] to 1 [at 90 angle]. When averaged from all angles + diffuse reflectivity= we get the overall value written everywhere(ie. snow 90perc.,etc..).
But we can't drop that value into our specular or diffuse slot as I've seen people doing. It's useless for us.

What does specular value in Corona/Vray/etc.. correspond to ? I don't know. If it's white[=1], and IOR of ~1.6 is used, it's almost the same as reflective curve of average dielectric material like plastic [which would have 0=0.04 and 90=1],
so maybe it's only some arbitrary number that get multiplied by the IOR curve, maybe it is 90 angle value, which then shouldn't really be moved for non-metals as long as IOR is used (i.e, it should imho always be 1=white).

But please don' take me literally, I am only curious, and dumb at that :- ) It's all my limited interpretation and I do feel lost like everyone else. I just don't like "eye-balling" and "do it like artist" answers.


Well, regarding bug and multi-material, refraction: The model of glass outside is simple box, edit poly with chamfer, single ID=1. The glass material is single material, it's not in multi-material.
The floor had multi-texture applied. Once I swapped single thing, the floor to single texture, the bug was gone, shadows were transparent again, and all those odd shadings were gone too.

This leads me it's more problem with the multi-texture somehow ? I don't really know what's happening.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: romullus on 2014-08-14, 20:53:30
So maybe it's yet another bug? i'll try to play with multi-texture map, then and see if i can replicate it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-11, 15:24:56
Hi guys, because most questions I get on email are regarding lighting, I share 3 pdfs out of my recent presentation. They're basic because I mostly rely on talking, but maybe you're interested in browsing through them before
I compile it into something more complex and add more of them.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2014-09-11, 16:36:23
Thanks for sharing. I often struggle with HDRI, but I don't if it is related to the quality of the HDRI or the camera settings I am using.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-11, 16:43:02
Quality of HDRi can be actually quite crucial. Lot of them just aren't dynamic enough, and have quite strong color cast that wouldn't be there in real life, producing too 'fairy-taily' effect, dimmed reflections,etc..
There is only one source I stand behind, CG-Source. All other are (for archviz, I am not talking high-end automotive ones like Moofe, different league) subpar.

You can still use those to great result, but it will strongly depend and make your life more complicated. Or you can embrace the unique look. I don't.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2014-09-11, 17:01:27
Definitely with some if not most of the HDRIs, we have to remove that blueish look, like Grant shows in one of his videos. I really need to give a go with CG-Source although they need to add a few more HDRI to their collection.

Usually what happens when I am using HDRI is trying to get the "correct" camera settings in order to get good light without burnt areas. And then is when I start to think that: a) I am doing something wrong or b) the HDRI's quality is not great. How do you tackle the camera settings?

I find interesting that you mention the need to have a spherical HDRI. If you have an HDRI that is only hemispherical do you use a reflective plane?

Thanks again for sharing your insight
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: belly on 2014-09-11, 17:08:58
Hi Cyrus3v

maybe this article can be of any help
http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr (http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2014-09-11, 21:45:12
Hi Cyrus3v

maybe this article can be of any help
http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr (http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr)

Thanks for sharing. There is a massive difference between a good and a less good HDRI. It is just a shame that we cannot check the HDRI's quality before buying it.

Thanks for your time
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Marvey on 2014-09-12, 00:23:10
Hi Juraj

Is interesting you told it is better to use a spherical HDRI and avoid a hemispherical, all the hdris i used from the past till the present including cgsource and peter g. all of them have the black part in the buttom.. since it is better the spherical, and guys like peter g. and cgsource who are experient ppl why they sell this hdris with black parts? well you have any technic to fix it?
regards
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-12, 00:31:13
If you create full CGI environment around your scene (like grassfield with Trees and other stuff covering horizon) than hemispherical is totally fine.
The problem is when it is used directly for any type of scene, which people often do, where that black part will create issues with lighting and reflection.
Something needs to be done to some extent to correct it (for example, make the black grey, or put infinite plane in Vray,etc.. those kind of solutions), but it will still have some issues because some of these HDRi can have cropped and rescaled part above horizon,
so the intensity there isn't that correct.

In Archviz we generally use HDRi differently than rest of the industry, as we just want "nice sky" out of it to do the lighting. Often in 99perc. of case, there is no compositing, so fitting spherical map isn't required.
And horizon could actually detract unless it was shot far out, so we would always have to find spherical one with matching perspective distance to our current scene. Last, high quality spherical HDRi for automotive industry (like Moofe), are superbly expensive.

But I can imagine someone to shoot and sell proper spherical HDRi for archviz, high dynamic range (16+ stops), hi-res (16k+ px), and with open-wide environment (cityscape from skyscrapper, wide open beach/ocean panorama/,grassfield shot from window height,etc..), but something like that would probably be bit more expensive than people are used to, and outside of few very good professionals, not many people know how to. Really, CG-Source is 10 levels higher than all the others together.

Some old quick example of "quick fix". It's blurred btw because I wanted softer shadows, not because of "sIBL" ! The grey bellow horizon provides some additional light to scene and specular don't show sharp line.


Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Marvey on 2014-09-12, 02:44:00
very nice info Juraj, thanks for the help!
regards
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: londonvisuals on 2014-09-12, 15:50:49
Out of curiosity Juraj - in the vray example with portal lights and the small window - those are used in "simple mode" or regular portal lights ?

When you use corona, do you use portals ? If yes in regular way - planes in window openings with corona portal mat or are you ticking on the enviro portal option on it the glass material?


As a side note - many thanks for sharing all this stuff, you are really a trully generous guy ! Always thinking that this forum (and many others) should send you a lifetime supply of beer :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-12, 15:55:14
I am 99perc. sure they were "simple" mode because nothing was outside. I don't think it makes difference in regard to environment light, but "non-simple/regular" traces additional rays to see if there is geometry outside (in case there were trees and so).
I used portals though scarcely, only when the opening got really small like that scene.

In Corona I used portal actually just one time ( I am quite fortunate to work on projects with huuuge windows for past year :- D ), in A6, and that was what you call regular, it was planes outside of windows with CoronaPortalMat.
I had no idea there is something new you can tick when you create glass ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: londonvisuals on 2014-09-12, 16:19:39
Thanks for the reply.

Yea in a7 (not sure if it was introduced earlier) you have the "enviro portal" option in material options. Havent compared it to the regular method tho.

In Vray I noticed that the "simple mode" portals tend to introduce waaaaaaay more diffuse light and really brighten the interior, in comparison to regular ones which only seem to refine the lighting, introduce more contact shadow etc.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-12, 16:31:48
Really ? I image this could be possible if you for example used ground plane (vray infinite), then regular one would trace it, but simple one ignore, and simply use VraySky which is super-intense even bellow horizon, so you get that "above clouds/skyscraper" type of lighting into room.
But if the difference is that big nonetheless, then they once again have documentation that absolutely sucks and the functions do things they're not well described. I have no patience anymore to do comparison so I can figure what does what.

I like Corona's implementation (well not the mat, it should be light instead) in that it does what it should, just focus rays, not create analytical light out of outside's environment intensity (then I can just create regular area light and map it directly I guess).
But both renderers got quite efficient that portals are becoming less of an necessity than they were.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Angevill Li on 2014-09-13, 17:16:18
so much useful tips,thx a lot.
regards
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: text on 2014-09-21, 04:13:03
Hi Juraj,

which are your favourite HDRIs from cg-source?


Thanks,
Emir
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-09-21, 21:52:09
Hi Juraj,

which are your favourite HDRIs from cg-source?


Thanks,
Emir

No idea, I have like 6 of them maybe only but it suffices because it's easy to modify them in PS :- ) I don't even know what I based them on. It's like Blue Sky, Blue Sky with little clouds, Grey Sky with more clouds..Sunset...

Not fan of the "I used ABC124" ;- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: romullus on 2014-09-21, 23:11:54
What's really good about cg-source maps, that there is low res demo versions to try. It's worth to download and test it before buying, because not all of them are equal in quality. Some of them has strong colour cast, some hasn't full dynamic range captured.  But many are really good.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-06, 23:59:25
As I wrote in FB, I won't post the full project any soon, or not even the wip 8 renders I showed in SOA, but plan to complete it after I finish some commercial work I have right now and then soon (like next month some time maybe ?), post it together with more detailed blog post describing in better detail some stuff I talked about in SOA AD but had to rush through :- ). Happy Corona-ing to everyone ! The real-time kicks ass ! I tested it at like 2a.m., but man it's bomb.

2 of the quick WIPs (rendered super fast the morning before falling asleep in car due to not sleeping for 26 hours). I am so thankful for all Veronika's support through all this..

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Buzzz on 2014-10-07, 16:58:53
Juraj, your amazing work!

Congratulations!!!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: londonvisuals on 2014-10-07, 17:46:54
Superb work. One of those ended up as wallpaper, hope You don't mind :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-07, 18:49:24
Sure, thanks :- ) They are from very early, quickly done WIPs though. I do hope to publish it as much more polished and coherent series later.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: AnubisMe on 2014-10-07, 19:59:39
Very cool project. Seems to resemble a 1960's 1970's style building.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-07, 20:15:53
Not my design but it is very modernist to certain point. It's Ipes house by Marcio Kogan.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2014-10-07, 20:16:24
Very nice renders :) Would really like some in depth info about making these, especialy foliage.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tomislavn on 2014-10-07, 20:21:42
Very nice renders :) like it a lot!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: hrisek on 2014-10-10, 15:41:56
Kickass renders Juraj:) Thank You for all shared informations, knowledge and other resources:)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Chakib on 2014-10-10, 17:56:50
As I wrote in FB, I won't post the full project any soon, or not even the wip 8 renders I showed in SOA, but plan to complete it after I finish some commercial work I have right now and then soon (like next month some time maybe ?), post it together with more detailed blog post describing in better detail some stuff I talked about in SOA AD but had to rush through :- ). Happy Corona-ing to everyone ! The real-time kicks ass ! I tested it at like 2a.m., but man it's bomb.

2 of the quick WIPs (rendered super fast the morning before falling asleep in car due to not sleeping for 26 hours). I am so thankful for all Veronika's support through all this..

Nice renders Juraj really nice mood, interiors is a little bit dark but i know you will take care of it !

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-10, 18:10:14


interiors is a little bit dark but i know you will take care of it !

What do you mean, I haven't posted any interior yet, but here is one, still in heavy WIP (but nice 5k render heh).

Do you mean the interior when you're outside ? Have a look how it look in real: {photo attach} This is what happend under direct sun
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: michaltimko on 2014-10-10, 18:57:15
Looks good! I like that bulge map on TV screen, nice detail.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-10, 19:01:54
Looks good! I like that bulge map on TV screen, nice detail.

:- ) Funny thing about the space was, it has very cheap TV. It's very plastic and small, you won't find one like that anywhere, so I just made it like simple turbosmooth box in few minutes, but with wavy screen.
But it does catch attention for 3D guys and bring slight realism.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: borisquezadaa on 2014-10-10, 21:51:29
Did you add the label in the sofa?... that's insane!... XD.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: jumamu on 2014-10-10, 21:58:14
Wow.. Absolutely incredible renders :O

Some of these looks real photos.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Chakib on 2014-10-10, 22:55:46


interiors is a little bit dark but i know you will take care of it !

What do you mean, I haven't posted any interior yet, but here is one, still in heavy WIP (but nice 5k render heh).

Do you mean the interior when you're outside ? Have a look how it look in real: {photo attach} This is what happend under direct sun

Yep i see it ok now, I saw it on a badly calibrated monitor ( dark also in exterior ) from the desk of my colleague  :D

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: dia on 2014-10-14, 11:39:27
Really great material on that sofa . Looks amazing man.
Looks like this is going to be a great serie of images . Wich i had more free time :)
The sofa material is a falloff material in the diffuse slot i guess with some roughness maps in the reflection glossiness slot ?  Or is it a blend material ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-14, 13:09:31
No it's far simpler. It has fallof curve in diffuse slot that sort of looks like IOR 1.6, it goes for 70perc. near zero, then it goes up but plateaus again for the last 10perc, which is the angle at which we see the sofa "above".
Then instead of mixing black and white in as masks for bright and darker texture, the white mask uses a texture instead.
It's heavy scene that I can't open right now so I'll post that later but hope this describes it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: dia on 2014-10-14, 13:28:20
No it's far simpler. It has fallof curve in diffuse slot that sort of looks like IOR 1.6, it goes for 70perc. near zero, then it goes up but plateaus again for the last 10perc, which is the angle at which we see the sofa "above".
Then instead of mixing black and white in as masks for bright and darker texture, the white mask uses a texture instead.
It's heavy scene that I can't open right now so I'll post that later but hope this describes it.

Yes it did :) thanks man.
Title: Exterior Lighting Setup
Post by: demmi on 2014-10-24, 16:22:18
Hi Juraj
First i would say that these are one of the best images i have seen for a long time so far so you have one more fan

Some points:
Lighting is in my opinion simply perfect
Modeling and texturing is from another world
its the king of render that all would ask - is it a photo?
A huge great work

As i am i newbie in 3ds and corona i am trying to learn how to light exteriors like this one you did can you explain with a tutorial how you did the lighting in the Marcio Kogan house?

and always remember always when you publish your work is inspiration to much people

Thanks
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-24, 16:46:10
The exterior is only placeholder lighting, I don't particulary like it :- ).

But it's single Daylight HDRi from CG-Source. Really no secret there. I just tried to find one that has pretty strong sun, to avoid gamma tinkering (which affects colors far too much and generally is shitty practice).
CG-Source has free samples, so just try few that you might like. And only if you need hi-res, buy that one.
I use only like 6 HDRi for everything :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: demmi on 2014-10-24, 22:41:16
Juraj i did some tests on Hdri you said me to download and its ok it did some sharp shadows my question is if you use always a hdri map always the sun is in the same angle right? if i want another angle i need to find another hdri.. or maybe edit the sun position on the hdri with some program?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tomislavn on 2014-10-24, 22:57:26
Juraj i did some tests on Hdri you said me to download and its ok it did some sharp shadows my question is if you use always a hdri map always the sun is in the same angle right? if i want another angle i need to find another hdri.. or maybe edit the sun position on the hdri with some program?

Ooooor just rotate the hdr horizontally? :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-24, 23:02:16
Juraj i did some tests on Hdri you said me to download and its ok it did some sharp shadows my question is if you use always a hdri map always the sun is in the same angle right? if i want another angle i need to find another hdri.. or maybe edit the sun position on the hdri with some program?

Exactly, if you need to make the sun position lower or higher, you can move it in photoshop. This can create slightly "impossible" lighting, but it's the same as if you use Sun/Sky and override natural color.

And yes, horizontal is just rotating :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: demmi on 2014-10-24, 23:15:18
i am learning from one of the bests one here =)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: belly on 2014-10-25, 10:23:17
Juraj i did some tests on Hdri you said me to download and its ok it did some sharp shadows my question is if you use always a hdri map always the sun is in the same angle right? if i want another angle i need to find another hdri.. or maybe edit the sun position on the hdri with some program?

Hi demmi

if you use the VRAY HDRI map you can rotate the HDRI in different directions. Horizontal is obvious, you can try vertical as well. The last (only slightly), whenever you do not have many clouds in your HDRI and see that the horizon is not showing up. Make sure that it doesn't look odd, I mean clouds running under a strange angle.
Beside this, Cg-source offers HDRI's with different sun height positions (mentioned in the file naming of cg-source). So grab the free once and try out some different HDRI's.

You can paint another sun on your HDRI (in Photoshop 32 bit color space with higher Stops), but I think It is not that easy to mask out the original once, You will end up with some artifacts.
But hey maybe you are beter with Photoshop then I do.

Anyway some more background info about what is good/bad HDRI you can find here http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr (http://www.themantissa.net/blog/2014/2/1/the-importance-of-high-quality-hdr)

Edit: it seems I missed some posts on the latest page.....
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-25, 12:10:32
Juraj i did some tests on Hdri you said me to download and its ok it did some sharp shadows my question is if you use always a hdri map always the sun is in the same angle right? if i want another angle i need to find another hdri.. or maybe edit the sun position on the hdri with some program?

 you can try vertical as well.
You can paint another sun on your HDRI (in Photoshop 32 bit color space with higher Stops), but I think It is not that easy to mask out the original once, You will end up with some artifacts.
But hey maybe you are beter with Photoshop then I do.

Edit: it seems I missed some posts on the latest page.....

I suggest against vertical rotation, once you have a horizon you're just asking for wrong illumination and reflection.

Moving the Sun doesn't require masking or paiting, you can do it using 'Warp' for example in 5 seconds.
Title: HDRI Controls
Post by: demmi on 2014-10-25, 14:43:44
Ok i will try next time my painting skills if i can find the right angle in another hdri but tnks for the info belly. One more question about HDRI i have seen too much people using the Vray something to load and control the HDRI and also the corona sun position etc is that really needed? i mean if i am now a Corona user i want to use only Corona stuff to make my renders and what to forget any Vray linked info in fact i do not want the name vray in my scene LOL
If people are using it and i saw some pros using is Corona missing some controls so that people is going this way?
Tnks
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-26, 02:27:53
I spent some time delving deeper into some stuff and played a bit with Disney's BRDF explorer (and reading fitted MERL data from csail.mit.edi )

So, what is it telling me ? That White (I presume glossy) paint has Albedo as low as <0.4 in linear value ? Seems to me but I am dumb simpleton so perhaps you guys can take a look.

Now if Sergey could finish that SGD plug for Vray for 3dsMax for example I could look directly..but oh well.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Stan_Booth on 2014-10-26, 15:49:46
Interesting
Need to find some free time to spent it with the Disney model and with the MERL
Downloaded them a month ago but didn't learn them deeply yet
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: borisquezadaa on 2014-10-27, 14:30:43
I have downloaded and played with it... but now... where do i put that magic number?.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-27, 14:44:13
Heh I was more interested in reading MERL data, as they are fitted from measured source, than how various BRDFs get close. At least I don't know how else to view them :- ).

What I liked about Sergey's SGD BRDF was that it could interpret MERL data and translate directly into usable variables (Diffuse, Specular,etc..) and one could interpolate to other materials based on those 100.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: borisquezadaa on 2014-10-27, 15:27:44
Rigth Click on albedo graph and drag!.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-27, 15:34:21
Rigth Click on albedo graph and drag!.

So ? That lets me zoom. And it shows albedo value, quite lower than what I would expect.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2014-10-27, 15:51:13
So ? That lets me zoom. And it shows albedo value, quite lower than what I would expect.

CG artists have a long tradition of setting albedo unreasonably high because they do not understand what albedo is. As a result, rendertimes are too high and renders look washed out (so people usually end up adding ambient occlusion or decreasing light bounces :D).

I recently made again the mistake of reading up on corona on some other renderers' forums. It is always the same story - if a renderer offers an AO engine, then Corona results look "washed out and unrealistic, with no shadows in corners, probably blurred and faked as much as possible to make it render this fast"
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-27, 15:59:31
So ? That lets me zoom. And it shows albedo value, quite lower than what I would expect.

CG artists have a long tradition of setting albedo unreasonably high because they do not understand what albedo is. As a result, rendertimes are too high and renders look washed out (so people usually end up adding ambient occlusion or decreasing light bounces :D).

I recently made again the mistake of reading up on corona on some other renderers' forums. It is always the same story - if a renderer offers an AO engine, then Corona results look "washed out and unrealistic, with no shadows in corners, probably blurred and faked as much as possible to make it render this fast"

What :- D ? Would love to read that.

Sure, the days of White=255 are gone, but, that we have the graph literally showing measured White paint to have Albedo as low as 0.35 Linear value at  0 degree incidence. On other hand, some researches like Sebastien Lagarde say almost opposite, that most people author physically based materials to have too low Albedo. I am of course, currently quite in middle, but I am always debating with myself where I should move, higher and lower. And from that point, be consistent among all the materials.

Measured materials are at the moment the closest answer to this question. But is that really so ? I went over 20 materials so far, from chrome to paint, fabrics...and it's always waaaaay darker than what I would image. I'll try to setup some real-world 3D scenario and see.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2014-10-27, 16:42:22
Ok, if you want some lulz, just search other forums (http://i.imgur.com/dswvI4R.png)

As for the albedo: do this: Find one material where you are 99% sure you know its true albedo. It can be for example a list of paper (nontranslucent). Place it side by side to real world materials and observe from multiple angles - is the paper whiter? Then its albedo must higher. So you can establish upper/lower bounds on real world albedos.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-27, 16:49:29
Ok, if you want some lulz, just search other forums (http://i.imgur.com/dswvI4R.png)

As for the albedo: do this: Find one material where you are 99% sure you know its true albedo. It can be for example a list of paper (nontranslucent). Place it side by side to real world materials and observe from multiple angles - is the paper whiter? Then its albedo must higher. So you can establish upper/lower bounds on real world albedos.

Yep, wanted to build controlled environment 1:1 where I can do measured photography to render comparison, but all this takes so much time and I need to do work instead :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2014-10-27, 17:39:43
the trick is, with controlled materials, you do not need controlled environment ;)

Buying this would certainly be cheaper than building a light probe ;) http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/27715-REG/Kodak_1903061_Gray_Cards.html
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2014-10-28, 08:15:19
Pretty interesting stuff this is :D... But with corona I think for corona also MSI should be added to the equation when estimating somewhat correct cgi materials.

You can get pretty bright white walls for interior with RGB=130-150 with a little bit of reflectivity on top of that. But to make it look natural I guess you would have to go with MSI around 1000 maybe(might depend on how open the interior is).

So doesn't it make sense to go for little brighter diffuse materials when using default 20 of max sample intensity? Or am I just confused with this all? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ylucic on 2014-10-28, 23:30:53
have you seen this Juraj?  http://patapom.com/topics/WebGL/BRDF/ (http://patapom.com/topics/WebGL/BRDF/)

it does the same as brdf explorer, but gives you control over lightning and materials. And shows you albedo values too ...It's a great webapp to play with. :) 

The albedo values there, when you load "white-paint" are about 0.75 (as a mean value, they do give you a value for each rgb channel), so I've been using this to try to imitate materials in Corona. The Diffuse Rho values are also very handy because they get red when it's over the value 1.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-28, 23:38:05
have you seen this Juraj?  http://patapom.com/topics/WebGL/BRDF/ (http://patapom.com/topics/WebGL/BRDF/)

it does the same as brdf explorer, but gives you control over lightning and materials. And shows you albedo values too ...It's a great webapp to play with. :) 

The albedo values there, when you load "white-paint" are about 0.75 (as a mean value, they do give you a value for each rgb channel), so I've been using this to try to imitate materials in Corona. The Diffuse Rho values are also very handy because they get red when it's over the value 1.

Thank you much Ylucic ! Looks like something easier to play with :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ylucic on 2014-10-28, 23:49:21
you are welcome ...and btw, this website has some nomenclature explained and show how "slices"  have to be read ..  http://wiki.nuaj.net/index.php?title=BRDF (http://wiki.nuaj.net/index.php?title=BRDF) 

had to find that link in my old bookmarks


it would be nice to see an implementation for slices in Corona (or any other renderer for that matter) in the material editor :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-28, 23:59:58
Fantastic wiki article, learned quite a lot.

The white glossy paint shows albedo of 0.75, and white matte fabric only 0.3. I presume it's sum of both diffuse and specular reflectance together.
What does Diffuse Rho stand for ?

I'll leave this stuff here :- D  I compensated exposure while I adjusted different multiplier to Diffuse reflection. I kept specular reflection constant too. It uses daily build, with GGX. Its lit by HDR and Tonemapping is set to 99 to get flat shading in highlights.
I don't know how to make gif and I don't have patience.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Stan_Booth on 2014-10-29, 01:06:55
So ? That lets me zoom. And it shows albedo value, quite lower than what I would expect.

CG artists have a long tradition of setting albedo unreasonably high because they do not understand what albedo is. As a result, rendertimes are too high and renders look washed out (so people usually end up adding ambient occlusion or decreasing light bounces :D).

I recently made again the mistake of reading up on corona on some other renderers' forums. It is always the same story - if a renderer offers an AO engine, then Corona results look "washed out and unrealistic, with no shadows in corners, probably blurred and faked as much as possible to make it render this fast"

agree to every word (;
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ylucic on 2014-10-29, 15:18:55
http://gifmaker.cc/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014102900DxgmONV2whOGSZTqZPfuQq&file=output_XZszDi.gif (http://gifmaker.cc/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014102900DxgmONV2whOGSZTqZPfuQq&file=output_XZszDi.gif)
GIF animation :D

why did you compensate exposure?? to get the "same" white? ...i'm looking at the material editor preview and there it looks more coherent the low diffuse value for white representing a greyish color

and made some comparisons with the brdf app .. with 0.9 on all rgb channels, for blinn_phong and ward, same ior for fresnel (1.5 app) and played with the roughness in specular... ..they look similar to the ones in the material editor of Corona

and I think the "Walter" analytical model is the one for GGX (Bruce Walter maybe?)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-29, 15:28:06
Yes, to get the same brightness, because I don't know how representive is exposure inside mat editor, or what would be the correct one to judge materials.

Damn you're pretty good with the app, I didn't know I can make my own test like that :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: metrocubicodigital on 2014-10-29, 16:52:18
Hi, great work and topic!

Just two quick questions:

In the Norwegian house for outside and inside which Cgsource HDRIs did you use specifically?

Same project, the interior wood boards are they cgsource texture too?

Cheers,
Jacinto
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-10-31, 19:26:29
It's called Iceland :- )

Texture see my last reply in gallery thread, I write few alternatives, unfortunately this one (not because of me only) I can't share, it's not possible to buy or get it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: chrisc0le on 2014-11-03, 09:35:58
If anyone was bored and wanted to watch something educative, we already started posting the videos online, but for now, they are in slovak language. They will be re-voiced fully in english after they are all complete, in early February. By that time, there should be around 20 videos and around 20 hours of free material.
We create them and publish them after our Friday's classes at Uni are over, so far there are 2 basic modelling videos.

[so disclaimer: might only hold value for total beginners right now, but eventually will go very complex, and until February only Slovak voice (Veronika and me, plus some of our modelers for SubD), in February English voice (again us) plus english subtitles ]

Just wanted to put it up in case some slovaks/czech/people who don't care about voice would look it up.

We'll supply full files for every stage by then too, right now, if someone wants the Cad files, just write me or maybe I'll post a link. It's just basic stuff Veronika drawn in AutoCad to simplify it.
At the moment it's only HD1280px, but english version will come on my VimeoPro so it will show in its original fullHD quality.

]

Hi Juraj, hope you had a good weekend.
Is there anywhere I can download the autocad files for these videos?

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-11-03, 13:16:01
Oh yes, moment, I'll ask Veronika where it is, and upload them when I find them on disk.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: chrisc0le on 2014-11-03, 14:07:54
Oh yes, moment, I'll ask Veronika where it is, and upload them when I find them on disk.

Superstar :) Thanks.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-11-03, 14:10:54
Oh yes, moment, I'll ask Veronika where it is, and upload them when I find them on disk.

Superstar :) Thanks.

Here you go. I think the third one is window, I didn't open them (I don't even have AutoCad installed).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: chrisc0le on 2014-11-03, 15:16:31
Thanks Juraj

The 3rd file is a .bak backup of the 'podorys' file.
So if there is supposed to be only 2 files. The window profile & the building plans i'm good to go :)

Maybe i'll spot something to improve my modelling skills as i'm self taught.
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: 3dwannab on 2014-11-06, 21:18:49
EDIT:

Final version :

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)
Hi Juraj, Big fan of your work. I was wondering about your image here. 2 questions.

1. How did you go about doing the intricate moulding on the walls and the ceiling especially where it wraps around the corner.
2. Forest pack to scatter a tuft of carpet like BBB3s here ---> http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2011/02/20/shag-carpet-using-forest-pack/ (http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2011/02/20/shag-carpet-using-forest-pack/) or different method.

Just noticed that panel is running into the left side of the fireplace. (Beautiful one at that I might add :))

Thanks.
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2014-11-07, 00:33:36
EDIT:

Final version :

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)
Hi Juraj, Big fan of your work. I was wondering about your image here. 2 questions.

1. How did you go about doing the intricate moulding on the walls and the ceiling especially where it wraps around the corner.
2. Forest pack to scatter a tuft of carpet like BBB3s here ---> http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2011/02/20/shag-carpet-using-forest-pack/ (http://bertrand-benoit.com/blog/2011/02/20/shag-carpet-using-forest-pack/) or different method.

Just noticed that panel is running into the left side of the fireplace. (Beautiful one at that I might add :))

Thanks.

I made the moulding combination in 2D by variously combining them together, then used modifier "follow spline" or something like that I think it's called in 3dsMax (it was long time ago...sorry,I will check proper name later)
, it bends the geometry to follow exact shape you want. The spline was detached part of the ceiling corner curvature

Yes, carpet is "Bertrand's method" :- ) But I used multiscatter. I have Forestpack now but I still find it bit complicated for my needs, maybe I am too dumb.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: marcotomaselli on 2014-11-20, 11:53:16
this great renders are without post?
Title: Black Doors
Post by: Black Sun on 2014-11-27, 09:10:44


For me, your work represents the best I've seen using Corona. I use it as a standard to work towards.

I was inspired by one of your Scandanavian style interiors with black kitchen doors. But I cannot get the same lustre as your doors.
I used matt black plastic with a wenge wood bump map. Can you divulge your secret to this lovely texture?

Enc. 2 min render example.



Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: druwee on 2015-01-16, 15:16:49
Yea, that package is great. I have done some tests already.

Thanks for link, amazing model.


How did you get this achieved, wow
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Black Sun on 2015-02-10, 08:43:41
Oh yes, moment, I'll ask Veronika where it is, and upload them when I find them on disk.

This thread has been very useful for me in pushing the limits of Corona to see what it can do.
From researching the advice of Juraj, Rawalanche and The Keymaster, and rendering the same 800MB scene
over and over again, I have deduced the following:

1. Pushing the Record Quality from 256 to 2048 helps with creating more quality, though only for interiors.
    1024 is sufficient for exterior scenes. Anything more than this is a waste.

2. Have no idea if increasing Max records from 100 to 999 has any benefits as Maru suggests. I am intrigued if anyone knows better?

3. Rawalanche's advice to change Image Filter in (Tent) to 1.333 instead of 1.5, for sharper images, creates more fireflies.
    Keymasters advice that filer is not necessary actually works. I prefer not to use filter as a result.
    It is advised on the net (and using Vray) to only use filters for animation, not stills.

4. MSI produces small fireflies past 100. I would prefer to go to 200 or even 400 as Juraj suggests to achieve unbiased results.
   But, 100 seems to be the limit for me. Having 0.0 MSI produces a firefly plague.

5. Pixel density is very important. The bigger the image, the better, as Juraj advices. 1920 x 1080 produces flat, blurry results.
    You have to go to 4K to start to see improvements. Juraj says he has frame buffer problems going to 8k. I don't have any problems
    going to 8k but it takes 1 hour per pass, so after 5 hours and only 5 passes, I decided to ditch the potential of 8k and stick to 4k.

6. HDRi alone are not good enough for me. Even using CG Source. I find I have to support it with Corona Sun at very small 0.003
    settings to add warmth to the renders and flush the shadows more. I also increase sun size to 5.0 to diffuse the shadows.

7. PT + PT does not work for me. It creates extra noise and fireflies. PT + HD has best results for interiors.

8. Corona materials perform better than standard mats. For example, I noticed bump maps give more convincing results so you can
   avoid using displacement.

9. From using PP software, Alienskin Exposure7 works better than Photolooks and ArionFX. There sharpening filters perform better as do there
   colour filters, though this, I guess, is personal taste, but since most pro photographers use Exposure, this is a good sign.

All done on a 2012 iMac, i7, 12gb ram, 1gb Graphics card.






Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-10, 12:36:56
Hi Blacksun,

I can comment on these as well now, as I have been using Corona for 2 years since I started this thread, and last year on Daily builds.
During that time, lot of my knowledge, has changed. Most of my findings, are still empirical, so take that as what it is :- ).

1)Indeed. There is finer detail in interiors, and it can solve light-leaks, if those ever occur. Though it's rarely necessary if you render past 2k.

2)I have no idea either. I tried to rise it up to 999, or precomputation past 1 (10-90+), but never noticed any much difference, not in early phase, not after overnight.
  At the moment, I am using UHD Cache from daily build, which only has "precomputation", but again, rising it past 1, I still don't see any difference....
  The manual says this should potentially speed up the rendering in long term, in my case it usually rises the UHD samples from 60k to 200k and that's it.
  But I am fine, I believe they should hide it completely, so it doesn't become mess like Vray's LightCache.

3)I eventually kept Tent 1.5, even rising it to 2 for high-res images.

4)Indeed, the fireflies can be annoying, so I also settled for less. I keep it around 60-100, but, most importantly, I set 'true' exposure, since Corona evaluates MSI based on that.
   So if you set true exposure at start of rendering, an then lower it in VFB or in post before tonemapping, you will get more accurate brightness. But the behaviour of this improved
   in Daily builds.

5) Pretty much, I can't even look at fullHD previews on my 2.5k monitor. 4k is standard for most of my rendering but few of the clients do request 8k. It warrant overnight rendering,
ideally using few of my machines.... Times are getting crazy.

6) CoronaSun/Sky usually create more realistic color temperature. High quality HDRi can be more flat in color (in case of CG-Source) , or artifically color-casted (like in case of Peter Guthrie) due to lower dynamic range, or processing.
    I usually use Sun/Sky instead of Sun/HDRi.

7) Yes, I abandonded PT+PT as well.

8) I didn't even know Corona supported standard mats lol. Does it... ?
    There is lot to improve in Corona mat...but it's on good way.

9) I just can't understand ArionFx, all the tonemappers are pretty annoying to use for me. I am more more satisfied with regular CameraRaw filter and Magicbullet Looks only for glows (with masked use to avoid the "so much bloom,...like in every second Vray image).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Black Sun on 2015-02-10, 13:14:05
Thanks for the reply, Juraj,

I just stopped my render based on what you just wrote. But, I have been working on the same scene for
two months now. Just not happy with it.... yet... though it did improve significantly when I read your thread.
Got alot of info that helped... especially rendering at 4k compared to 2k.

I think I will try pushing the Tent to 2.0 as you suggest. I went back to using filter. For some reason I cannot
come to terms with not using one. I feel I am committing a sin by not filtering. So, increasing Filter to 2.0
will smooth things out more I guess.

I was convinced that using HDRi's was the only way to go for good lighting. But I am surprised that when I compare
renders between HDRi and Sun & Sky there is a big difference. HDR seems cold and flat while S&S is warm
and friendly and has much more depth. For some reason I don't seem to trust S&S cos it is too simple.
But the results show that maybe HDRi for interiors is NOT the right choice.

I read about ArionFX on BBB3. But, was not convinced when I tried it.
I also learned from BBB3 to lower RGB of whites to 185. Every little bit of info helps. Become abit of a magpie.

Thanks for the update :)







Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-10, 13:22:25
I used 180 whites for more than 2 years :- ) But I am not always obsessed with realism, or holy grail seeking like some here...and for artistic choice, rise their value slightly, to 190-200. In interiors with small windows,
that means I can still use purely natural light only and still get bright space. With realistic values, I would have to use photographic flashlights/softboxes.

HDR vs Sun/Sky, I think this is most missunderstood thing in industry. Almost everybody believes HDRi are something magical, mystical, but it's just fucking image that makes setup more convenient for Archviz. Unless you can get
the benefit of specular reflections from it (if you have super large windows like in my Icelanding house), the benefit for classic interior rendering is almost none.

Sun/Sky is fast to setup, very flexible (you can setup intensity, color, shadow softness/penumbra,etc..vertical and horizontal aligment). There is no reason to look down on it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2015-02-10, 14:26:50
8) CoronaSun/Sky usually create more realistic color temperature. High quality HDRi can be more flat in color (in case of CG-Source) , or artifically color-casted (like in case of Peter Guthrie) due to lower dynamic range, or processing.
    I usually use Sun/Sky instead of Sun/HDRi.

Do you use more HDRI for exteriors? Do you find necessary the HDR's reflections on and exterior scene?

EDIT:

Well, you sort of reply to this. but I am interested to know about the:

Do you find necessary the HDR's reflections on and exterior scene?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2015-02-10, 15:24:44
HDR vs Sun/Sky, I think this is most missunderstood thing in industry.

linear workflow
unbiased/biased
physically based rendering
GPU/CPU
albedo
BRDF
...

:D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-10, 16:11:36
HDR vs Sun/Sky, I think this is most missunderstood thing in industry.

linear workflow
unbiased/biased
physically based rendering
GPU/CPU
albedo
BRDF
...

:D

Heh, true...

Do you find necessary the HDR's reflections on and exterior scene?

Can again depend heavily on conditions. Imagine you've built pretty self-encompassed scenery around your exterior scene, a forest perhaps. In such case, the specular reflections you get stem mostly from silhouette of that forest, and dynamic range of sky which is much brighter, creating the reflections you see in glass/windows. In such case, Sky or HDRi can provide pretty equal conditions, unless you can also spot some clouds.
In more solitude type of scenario, like my icelandic house, there was nothing to reflect and the 360 fully spherical texture provided that. Same case for car/product renderings.

So I decide on case per case, just like in every issue.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: nehale on 2015-02-11, 09:26:59
If anyone was bored and wanted to watch something educative, we already started posting the videos online, but for now, they are in slovak language. They will be re-voiced fully in english after they are all complete, in early February. By that time, there should be around 20 videos and around 20 hours of free material.
We create them and publish them after our Friday's classes at Uni are over, so far there are 2 basic modelling videos.

[so disclaimer: might only hold value for total beginners right now, but eventually will go very complex, and until February only Slovak voice (Veronika and me, plus some of our modelers for SubD), in February English voice (again us) plus english subtitles ]

Just wanted to put it up in case some slovaks/czech/people who don't care about voice would look it up.

We'll supply full files for every stage by then too, right now, if someone wants the Cad files, just write me or maybe I'll post a link. It's just basic stuff Veronika drawn in AutoCad to simplify it.
At the moment it's only HD1280px, but english version will come on my VimeoPro so it will show in its original fullHD quality.


Hi Juraj

wanted to ask whats the progress on the new videos so far
They are awesome to just watch
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: AnubisMe on 2015-02-11, 22:03:32
I am do see myself using the sun/sky more for interiors but for exteriors I cant seem to get a good sun sky model to work for the life of me.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: nacho_grande on 2015-02-12, 00:29:47
The clarity of your images make me feel like there's hope for those noisy scenes I have rendered so far. :) Absolutly breathtaking.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-12, 00:34:56
My recent wips for clients are very noisy though :- ) I don't know if my scenes got too complex or if Corona got slower..but I am fighting a lot.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-12, 09:39:13
My recent wips for clients are very noisy though :- ) I don't know if my scenes got too complex or if Corona got slower..but I am fighting a lot.

I´ve noticed as well that rendering has gotten slower, but I think it could be a combination of both?

I know, with myself, that the faster I can render the more complex my scenes get. It would be interesting to be able to render exactly the same scene with for instance Alpha V6 and see if there is any difference in render times.

How bad has the render times been for you lately?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Black Sun on 2015-02-12, 16:52:30
My recent wips for clients are very noisy though :- ) I don't know if my scenes got too complex or if Corona got slower..but I am fighting a lot.

I have put my MSI down from 100 to 50. I see fireflies (very small) at beginning of render.
Cannot risk waiting 7 hours to see if they converge or not.

Might have to go back to Max 2014 to use A6 soon. Never used A6 before. maybe it's faster.
Seems Max is good every two years... 2014 good... 2015 bad.... 2016 good.
Just like M/soft Windows....

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-12, 16:52:58
My recent wips for clients are very noisy though :- ) I don't know if my scenes got too complex or if Corona got slower..but I am fighting a lot.

I´ve noticed as well that rendering has gotten slower, but I think it could be a combination of both?

I know, with myself, that the faster I can render the more complex my scenes get. It would be interesting to be able to render exactly the same scene with for instance Alpha V6 and see if there is any difference in render times.

How bad has the render times been for you lately?

Honestly I don't know, I can never bring myself to be precise and do some actual comparison so I just go with feelings :- ) But even my 2.5k test renders, often need [I am not writting actual render times since I have farm, but normalized it per 6-core i7] 3-4 hours to clean-up {I am very bothered by any blurriness/fuziness/residual noise}, but hardly to where I would like them.

But I have more GI-intense scenes, which alone, isn't issue, but when coupled with fact almost every material is very (rough) specular, makes an issue. But I had the same problem with Vray. Complicated GI + Specular surface + BF = Issue. I solved that with IR in such cases, which aleviated the spec+GI issues, since interpolated GI is smooth and specular surfaces clean-up much faster and leave almost zero residual noise.

Trade-off I guess I will simply have to live with forever. Simplicty + Precision, means high render times in complicated scenes. UE4 makes my blood boil though, where I see how super clean and fast those faked glossies look. I am completely satisfied with how they look :- ) I would literally love the combo of fake/interpolated glossies with path-traced GI. Best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-12, 16:59:05
Hi Juraj

wanted to ask whats the progress on the new videos so far
They are awesome to just watch

So far failed promise on my part, I apologize. Definitely something I want to do, but I changed a lot my work philosophy before Christmas. I simply decided to spend every time I am not doing commercial work to keep my mind shut off from CGI. Not community, no tutorials, no personal project (although Veronika is modelling kick-ass mercedes) . I simply became too drained, too burn out.

I keep saying for few months just one more project, and then take 3 months off at some beach. I have so many ideas I want to finish, but too little mental energy to keep focus on it. My studio is bigger, responsibilities grow, projects became too long and complicated, I need a time-off. But I will get back on it :- ) Just for the fact so many people survived watching tutorial in language they couldn't understand :- D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-12, 23:57:13
Honestly I don't know, I can never bring myself to be precise and do some actual comparison so I just go with feelings :- ) But even my 2.5k test renders, often need [I am not writting actual render times since I have farm, but normalized it per 6-core i7] 3-4 hours to clean-up {I am very bothered by any blurriness/fuziness/residual noise}, but hardly to where I would like them.

But I have more GI-intense scenes, which alone, isn't issue, but when coupled with fact almost every material is very (rough) specular, makes an issue. But I had the same problem with Vray. Complicated GI + Specular surface + BF = Issue. I solved that with IR in such cases, which aleviated the spec+GI issues, since interpolated GI is smooth and specular surfaces clean-up much faster and leave almost zero residual noise.

Trade-off I guess I will simply have to live with forever. Simplicty + Precision, means high render times in complicated scenes. UE4 makes my blood boil though, where I see how super clean and fast those faked glossies look. I am completely satisfied with how they look :- ) I would literally love the combo of fake/interpolated glossies with path-traced GI. Best of both worlds.

I see! 3-4 hours seems pretty ok, my latest projects has taken 3-5 hours at 5k on my dual xeon workstation...kind of slow :)

Some materials are really really hard to get clean....takes forever! I really must try UE4 sometime, but it looks kind of complicated to wrap my head around, but sometime! :)

I would be nice (but probably difficult/ impossible to implement) to have the render engine focus (perhaps after a number of passes or something) on materials with low value for refl. glossiness so some materials will get all the cpu power.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: nacho_grande on 2015-02-13, 08:06:11
Honestly, I am getting much more fast results even with VRay (IR+LC) pretty bumped settings (Which is no cool, because I'd dump it). I want to believe that the reason of the failure to get fast results via Corona is lack of my knowledge and falsy adjustments.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 11:12:25
Honestly I don't know, I can never bring myself to be precise and do some actual comparison so I just go with feelings :- ) But even my 2.5k test renders, often need [I am not writting actual render times since I have farm, but normalized it per 6-core i7] 3-4 hours to clean-up {I am very bothered by any blurriness/fuziness/residual noise}, but hardly to where I would like them.

But I have more GI-intense scenes, which alone, isn't issue, but when coupled with fact almost every material is very (rough) specular, makes an issue. But I had the same problem with Vray. Complicated GI + Specular surface + BF = Issue. I solved that with IR in such cases, which aleviated the spec+GI issues, since interpolated GI is smooth and specular surfaces clean-up much faster and leave almost zero residual noise.

Trade-off I guess I will simply have to live with forever. Simplicty + Precision, means high render times in complicated scenes. UE4 makes my blood boil though, where I see how super clean and fast those faked glossies look. I am completely satisfied with how they look :- ) I would literally love the combo of fake/interpolated glossies with path-traced GI. Best of both worlds.

I see! 3-4 hours seems pretty ok, my latest projects has taken 3-5 hours at 5k on my dual xeon workstation...kind of slow :)


You missunderstood me then, I said 2.5k :- ), so only quarter of yours, 2560px,. My 5-8k finals take around 12+ hours minimum at dual xeon slave. But that is ok.

Honestly, I am getting much more fast results even with VRay (IR+LC)

Of course IR is fast, but I am comparing BF/LC to PT/UHD. In which case, Corona is still slightly faster, about 30perc. in my case. I am comparing for the same quality, which IR can't give, or even solve at some complicated scenario (like stucco apartments).
BF/LC progressive is actually quite worse, but on other hand, BF/LC bucket adaptive, as much as I dislike it, is very effective, still slow, but cleans up image very equally. Corona will need some form of adaptivity later.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-13, 11:51:55
You missunderstood me then, I said 2.5k :- ), so only quarter of yours, 2560px,. My 5-8k finals take around 12+ hours minimum at dual xeon slave. But that is ok.

I meant that if your renders take 3-4 hours at 2,5k on a i7 then 3-5 hours at 5k on a dual xeon workstation (approx. 3x faster?) is kind of slow :) I´m pretty bad at explaining myself sometimes!

But if 5-8k takes 12+ hours, that must be some heavy scenes! Would like to see one of those renders, interesting to see what kind of scene takes that long time to render :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 12:13:16
You missunderstood me then, I said 2.5k :- ), so only quarter of yours, 2560px,. My 5-8k finals take around 12+ hours minimum at dual xeon slave. But that is ok.

I meant that if your renders take 3-4 hours at 2,5k on a i7 then 3-5 hours at 5k on a dual xeon workstation (approx. 3x faster?) is kind of slow :) I´m pretty bad at explaining myself sometimes!

But if 5-8k takes 12+ hours, that must be some heavy scenes! Would like to see one of those renders, interesting to see what kind of scene takes that long time to render :)

5 hours/5k/Dual Xeon (3x performance)= 15 hours/5k/i7= 4 hours/2.5k/i7 :- ) It's the same times.

Scenes are decently fast in one of two scenarios happen:

     Simple scene (Gi), but enough complicated materials (specular)= Icelandic house, very fast.
     Complicated scene (Gi), but few materials only (specular) = Parisian apartment, decently fast as well.

But if I have scene that has it both, like intricated long rooms, lot of GI details (Stucco), but also every material is glossy specular, it's big issue. It's like the render times suddenly multiply. It's not slower...but I need 4times more passes on same settings than usual.
It's not really Corona issue only, Vray struggles as well, as in these scenarios, IR cannot be used, it will never pick-up the stucco details correctly (just ask Bertrand Benoit how many times he tried).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: nacho_grande on 2015-02-13, 12:53:30
Yes IR misses details. Detail enhancement should work on those cases, however it increases the render time very dramatically. I mostly render kitchen scenes. They are quite complicated as all the front surfaces are glossy acrylic. My standart render size is 2500-3000px. Sometimes it takes almost 10hrs to get a noisy render no matter what combination of settings I use (16/10, 32/10, 64/4, 64/0,25 while MSI:4), including Albedo reduction.

PS. My CPU is 2x E5-2696v2 2.5Ghz (Turbocore:3.3Ghz)

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 13:16:12
No the issue with IR is not loss of detail, you can always use hi-res IR map, which yields better precision, but not better quality. It will simply always create artifacts in far-off scene due to sample allocation, detail enhancement isn't there to solve this issue, LC retrace partly is. Scenes like Parisian apartment, could not be rendered in IR even with lowest Normal/Distance thresholds in IR, the algorithm itself, simply fails at such geometry and detail enhancement doesn't reach those detail in far-off parts of scene, only BF does.

10 hours per dual-xeon slave for 3k is a lot, esp. if you say it doesn't even converge. Like I said, mine are half of that, which I still consider too much, but double ? That's rather extreme... Do you use some un-orthodox lighting setup ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: nacho_grande on 2015-02-13, 13:19:08
Would you like me to send you the scene? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-13, 16:02:32
5 hours/5k/Dual Xeon (3x performance)= 15 hours/5k/i7= 4 hours/2.5k/i7 :- ) It's the same times.

Scenes are decently fast in one of two scenarios happen:

     Simple scene (Gi), but enough complicated materials (specular)= Icelandic house, very fast.
     Complicated scene (Gi), but few materials only (specular) = Parisian apartment, decently fast as well.

But if I have scene that has it both, like intricated long rooms, lot of GI details (Stucco), but also every material is glossy specular, it's big issue. It's like the render times suddenly multiply. It's not slower...but I need 4times more passes on same settings than usual.
It's not really Corona issue only, Vray struggles as well, as in these scenarios, IR cannot be used, it will never pick-up the stucco details correctly (just ask Bertrand Benoit how many times he tried).

I missunderstood because I estimated 1/2 of the time for half the render size :)

I see what you mean. I remember when I used Vray how hard it was sometimes to get details with IR so I switched to BF, love the quality with BF/PT!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 16:13:38
No, my issue isn't with visual fidelity/detail in IR, IR can bring out similar detail as BF simply if you rise its resolution (Max. level=0= Same resolution as framebuffer), esp. coupled with 'detail enhancement' (local Brute force single bounce).
But even at best IR thresholds for quality (the adjustments no one touches because they are potato and one one know how they work, Normal, Color and Distance), it will simply fail to allocate samples properly at intricate geometry far-off camera.
Leading to infamous Blotches. By the time you're so/so able to tweak the IR map to roughly get this area correct, you are at times rivaling Brute Force, so you might as well just use brute force straight away in such case.

This is big dilemma that I don't have to deal with in Corona. But there are times were IR is simply invaluable, for example interior animations. I can't imagine path-tracing these...not yet.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-13, 16:31:26
No, my issue isn't with visual fidelity/detail in IR, IR can bring out similar detail as BF simply if you rise its resolution (Max. level=0= Same resolution as framebuffer), esp. coupled with 'detail enhancement' (local Brute force single bounce).
But even at best IR thresholds for quality (the adjustments no one touches because they are potato and one one know how they work, Normal, Color and Distance), it will simply fail to allocate samples properly at intricate geometry far-off camera.
Leading to infamous Blotches. By the time you're so/so able to tweak the IR map to roughly get this area correct, you are at times rivaling Brute Force, so you might as well just use brute force straight away in such case.

This is big dilemma that I don't have to deal with in Corona. But there are times were IR is simply invaluable, for example interior animations. I can't imagine path-tracing these...not yet.

I understand what you mean :) Those blotches made me crazy... Is it because using PT would take too long? Or any other reason?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: DeadClown on 2015-02-13, 16:37:36
This is big dilemma that I don't have to deal with in Corona. But there are times were IR is simply invaluable, for example interior animations. I can't imagine path-tracing these...not yet.

Depends. My cathedral for example was the reason why I decided to go with Corona in the first place. IR simply fails in such a difficult light situation (hundreds of small openings and detailed geometry). It took ages and still looked shitty. So sometimes (especially if something moves) pt can be the solution, even with interiors. It still takes a painful amount of time though :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 16:44:34
IR can compute the GI part in fraction of time and reuse it for multiple frames. That's two domains where it saves the time.

Example: 1 Frame (BF/LC or PT/UHD, doesn't matter) = 2 min for UHD + 2 hours for fullHD clean interior
                1 Frame (IR/LC) = 2 minutes for LC, 10 minutes for detailed IR, and and 20 minutes for frame.

So for still image, we get roughly 4 times faster image at best, at worst it can be roughly twice only. It's almost always faster, because since interpolated GI is always smooth (IR cannot be noisy), there is much less noise to deal with after. Specular surfaces render much faster.

But the true time savings come to simple flythrough animation, where single IR map, can be reused across multiple frames, at slow speeds, even 1 IR map per 30 frames.

So 1 minute of animation (BF/LC or PT/UHD) is 1800 (frames) x 2 hours = 3600 render hours
     1 minute of animation (IR+ LC) =  180 (every 10nth frame to be safe for every static scenario)x10min + 1800x20 = 630 render hours

The time saving are even better. The whole setup is more complicate, and issue-prone,...but ultimately, we are talking thousands of euros in computation times difference.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 16:45:38
This is big dilemma that I don't have to deal with in Corona. But there are times were IR is simply invaluable, for example interior animations. I can't imagine path-tracing these...not yet.

Depends. My cathedral for example was the reason why I decided to go with Corona in the first place. IR simply fails in such a difficult light situation (hundreds of small openings and detailed geometry). It took ages and still looked shitty. So sometimes (especially if something moves) pt can be the solution, even with interiors. It still takes a painful amount of time though :D

Yes, that's why I mentioned the Stucco interiors, where it fails as well, and takes equal time just to look much worse :- ).

Quote
By the time you're so/so able to tweak the IR map to roughly get this area correct, you are at times rivaling Brute Force, so you might as well just use brute force straight away in such case.

But most archviz guys aren't rendering flythrough of cathedrals :- )

I am not saying IR is superior, it's extremely shitty, faulty, moody, potato settings hard to tweak algorithm. But when it works, it's invaluable speed-up.
And when I have animation, where the difference between using IR and BF is 10 thousands euros, I compromise every minute to make it work.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-13, 17:09:35
Thanks for the detailed info! You really save time with IR, but it would be interesting to render an animation in Corona :) I will however be prepared for loooong render times..

Have I misunderstood something but isn´t UHD Cache suppose to help with animations?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-02-13, 17:17:48
Thanks for the detailed info! You really save time with IR, but it would be interesting to render an animation in Corona :) I will however be prepared for loooong render times..

Have I misunderstood something but isn´t UHD Cache suppose to help with animations?

It helps to avoid flickering. But it's still just one part of GI. Pathtracing still contributes to it on each frame. While with IR+LC, GI is completely pre-computed and reused across multiple frames (obviously there are tons of drawbacks, esp. with non-static geometry, but for archviz, it works most of the time).

UHD is just new HD Cache that will work for both stills and animation. It's nothing animation specific, neither does it speed it up or anything.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2015-02-13, 18:27:13
It helps to avoid flickering. But it's still just one part of GI. Pathtracing still contributes to it on each frame. While with IR+LC, GI is completely pre-computed and reused across multiple frames (obviously there are tons of drawbacks, esp. with non-static geometry, but for archviz, it works most of the time).

UHD is just new HD Cache that will work for both stills and animation. It's nothing animation specific, neither does it speed it up or anything.

Now that you mention it I remember reading that UHD Cache would help with flickering :)
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: Sekhar_R on 2015-03-12, 21:15:58
With little time, we had to create Bonaldo Tufty-time sofa in cloth finish. It's kind of hard, even for Marvelous, but I am quite happy with result like this. Courtesy to Veronika

Already playing with Alpha5. Funny my scene didn't render correctly, so I opted for merging into new scene, and than it rendered correctly again. Filtering Yes or No still cause me some confusion, so at the moment, all maps are unfiltered at 0.1 except for bump which is filtered at 0.1 on summed area.

I guess also bidirectional isn't suitable for this type of scene ? It seems impressively noisy compared to simple path tracing, so I guess it benefits only for much complicated lightning ? Little light sources and caustics,etc.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/9057387497_161f7eb163_o.jpg)

Still incredibly happy for this renderer.

EDIT:

Final version :

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)

Hi Juraj,

I have been following this feed for quite some time now and got aboard the Corona Ship. Admiring your work. would you mind, sharing your floor material workflow? is that a texture, or elements using railclone or something of that sort. How to apply random texture, if it was made in Railclone. (the material element is not fully supported in Railclone). A quick response with some details is highly appreciated, as I am trying hard to replicate the effect.

Thanks a lot for your time on reading this post. Cheers.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-03-12, 23:05:29
I am not using Railclone, I don't even own it :- ) I hope someone from my team wishes to learn it (Veronika shown some interest), but I have none.

The floor was modelled manually, but that really is simple process, you just copy all the planks, and then do some manual offseting and rotating in fractions so you have some random detail.
This was rendered with Alpha 5, so I also had to bake out the map from multitexture which I rendered top-down in Scanline, but today you can use multitexture directly...so that's very easy.

It has two UV mappings. One is per each element, and one is big planar tiled with scratches.

So funny how old that is....and how good Alpha 5 worked for archviz already.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Sekhar_R on 2015-03-22, 19:15:49
I am not using Railclone, I don't even own it :- ) I hope someone from my team wishes to learn it (Veronika shown some interest), but I have none.

The floor was modelled manually, but that really is simple process, you just copy all the planks, and then do some manual offseting and rotating in fractions so you have some random detail.
This was rendered with Alpha 5, so I also had to bake out the map from multitexture which I rendered top-down in Scanline, but today you can use multitexture directly...so that's very easy.

It has two UV mappings. One is per each element, and one is big planar tiled with scratches.

So funny how old that is....and how good Alpha 5 worked for archviz already.

Thanks for the response Juraj. I did start on the same path of yours, using the CLONE script from itoo. Its really handy and free. Will upload a test render soon. Keep up the good work. regards
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: kehlje on 2015-07-13, 17:59:28
Hey Juraj, what is the process you've alluded to for using different UVW channels to map, for instance, wood textures to individual planks as well as an overarching dirt texture? I've tried searching for this online but I keep getting results that are more about texturing complex objects, creatures, etc., for other types of viz work. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-07-13, 20:59:04
Hey Juraj, what is the process you've alluded to for using different UVW channels to map, for instance, wood textures to individual planks as well as an overarching dirt texture? I've tried searching for this online but I keep getting results that are more about texturing complex objects, creatures, etc., for other types of viz work. Thanks in advance!

Quote
wood textures to individual planks as well as an overarching dirt texture

Just that. Each plank has UV map encompassing only that plank, additionally, there is one big map tiling over 30 or so planks. For each UV, you use another channel (1,2,3...), and don't forget to do the same in bitmaps in mat editor.

You can use as many UV maps as you wish.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: kehlje on 2015-07-14, 22:44:27
I see now -- thanks! Going to test it out...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: rfletchr on 2015-09-03, 22:15:45
these are really stunning!

May i ask, are the floorboards accurately wide? for me they're really ruining the sense of scale.
im refering to
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/9873354964_b0222c476a_o.jpg
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-09-03, 22:26:11
They are though (plank dimension is correct but the texture is stretched, but not too much, only from 35cm to 40-45 cm or so, not sure after such long time) But hm, I quite dislike the empty parts I created between them, that's overdone, but that's preview maybe only.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-14, 00:07:40
I have some( not too much...) free time now, so I will try to complete the Ipes house I started last year.

Installed daily build for this, works perfectly :- ) but we'll see under displacement yet.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/38bx0f0u3ulw990/chair.png?dl=0

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=37297;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: bluebox on 2015-10-14, 11:05:12
The project is great, can't wait till You finish it Juraj. Also glad that you found some time to post some stuff from time to time. At least I hope you did :D
Vegetation works wonders here, could you please share the source of the models ? I mean the trees and low bushes/shrubs blocking the line of sight. Thank you.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-14, 14:15:45
Of course no problem. All the shrubery is from Bertrand Benoit's turbosquid. But I made new textures, but mostly normal maps, and then new material. I can post full screenshot with how that material and my reasoning works if interested.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: dubcat on 2015-10-14, 14:29:43
I can post full screenshot with how that material and my reasoning works if interested.
THAT would be frickin awesome :) Great and inspiring work as always
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-14, 15:51:17
Here it is :- ) Please don't judge it harshly, I am person with strong ADHD and I am happy when I sit through this :- )

I will come later and make video tutorial of more complex, thought out material from the scene but hope this one suffices right now. The philosophy is the same.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=37343;image)

Also attaching 2560px below:
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: peterguthrie on 2015-10-14, 15:58:28
thanks Juraj! perfect timing as was looking at getting vegetation looking good in corona earlier today. Will read through with interest.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Torsten on 2015-10-14, 16:29:01
Thanks, great shader!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: bluebox on 2015-10-14, 16:39:47
Thank you ! The amout of observation you put into this is impressive, so are the effects !
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Torsten on 2015-10-14, 18:17:51
I really like the setup you prupose. Thanks for making it easier for us to gain the knowledge you have.

Just a question, i always thought that when you use translucency, the translucency color was the backside of the thin polygon? Why do you setup a front/back material than in the diffuse slot?
Or do i misinterpretthe front/back material?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-14, 18:29:54
I really like the setup you prupose. Thanks for making it easier for us to gain the knowledge you have.

Just a question, i always thought that when you use translucency, the translucency color was the backside of the thin polygon? Why do you setup a front/back material than in the diffuse slot?
Or do i misinterpretthe front/back material?

Thanks!

Not sure I follow you correctly, but:

The front/back in Diffuse slot would be there even if the leaf wasn't translucent at all. That's not the color you see against the light, that's the physical color of that surface. Leaves have different surface on top (facing the sun) and the bottom of the leaf.

The translucency slot (back when I did this with version 1.0. there wasn't translucency level slot, only single one), influences what happens when the light travels through the leaf. It simulates the "inside" of the leaf, the so called subsurface scattering, and leaf looks the same against light/sun no matter which side you hold it against.

What you describe, is what happens with Vray2Sided shader, which imho is good only for simulating paper at best.

Transparency =/= Translucency.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Torsten on 2015-10-14, 19:12:40
Thanks Juraj for the extensive explanation, really helps me figure out what kind of map to put where!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: filipskrzat on 2015-10-17, 15:15:02
Juraj thank you very much for sharing your approach to vegetation materials :)

I would love to see your way of creating cloth materials in corona :D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/460459014002728960/mQASYFxT_400x400.jpeg)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-17, 15:46:44
My cloth materials... ? There are super primitive, if I post them someone will point at me again why I don't do it smart and complicated like real pros.

But I have one sofa I am proud of :- ) I thought I did the velvet effect pretty smartly... it's still primitive but I can illustrate on that. Or any other you are interested ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: filipskrzat on 2015-10-17, 16:05:44
I am very interested in "everyday" situation :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-19, 19:53:39
Did another pic over evening and slowly completing parts of the house I didn't have finished (bedroom, smaller kitchen,etc..).


(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=37618;image)


Requested raw render. As you see I installed VFB+ yesterday and it's amazing :- )

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=37620;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2015-10-19, 20:54:33
Hi Juraj_Talcik. Is that VFB on the daily builds?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-19, 21:32:31
No, it's commercial plugin, it has 30 day free trial and then costs only 19 dollars.

http://www.monotoneminimal.com/vfb
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: CiroC on 2015-10-19, 21:39:11
No, it's commercial plugin, it has 30 day free trial and then costs only 19 dollars.

http://www.monotoneminimal.com/vfb

Although I like to keep my renders as raw as possible, this is a fantastic tool. And only 19$!!!
Many thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: agentdark45 on 2015-10-19, 21:54:05
Wow nice! Would you mind giving us a quick rundown of how to use VFB+ with Corona (how do I set up the Corona tonemapping for it work with filmic)? I might have to pick this up!

Also interested to hear about your 3D lut settings / what curves you're using as having a close to final render in the VFB would be amazing. Is the ICC profile ticked because of your monitor or does it affect the render in another way?



Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-19, 22:00:43
Wow nice! Would you mind giving us a quick rundown of how to use VFB+ with Corona (how do I set up the Corona tonemapping for it work with filmic)? I might have to pick this up!

Hey I just installed this yesterday :- ) But anyway, the filmic obviously works best from linear. (Highlight compression 1.0 in Corona settings). It's bit less aggressive than Reinhard, keeps better contrast and colors, even without using the "rich shadows" parameter.
This is btw a simplified version of real filmic, which has much more controls, but maybe this is genial idea, because full filmic with 5 controls (white level, shoulder, toe,etc..) which for example is in Unreal Engine 4, is painful to use.


Also interested to hear about your 3D lut settings / what curves you're using as having a close to final render in the VFB would be amazing. Is the ICC profile ticked because of your monitor or does it affect the render in another way?

But I am not ! :- ) It's not ticked on, the tab is closed because I don't use ICC profiles. I have Dell3014 and I keep it hardware calibrated (not inside GPU) in OSD profile. So even if 3dsMax doesn't have calibrated environment it looks correct, and consistent within the rest of my environment (photoshop, desktop, browser), which is set to sRGB ( I use intentionally clamped color spectrum even on wide-gamut monitor because this is what everyone has mostly and it makes my life easier).

The whole tab is unused. It just looks similar because I used very minor post-production in Photoshop, mostly local exposure adjustments manually masked.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: agentdark45 on 2015-10-19, 22:09:20
Wow nice! Would you mind giving us a quick rundown of how to use VFB+ with Corona (how do I set up the Corona tonemapping for it work with filmic)? I might have to pick this up!

Hey I just installed this yesterday :- ) But anyway, the filmic obviously works best from linear. (Highlight compression 1.0 in Corona settings). It's bit less aggressive than Reinhard, keeps better contrast and colors, even without using the "rich shadows" parameter.
This is btw a simplified version of real filmic, which has much more controls, but maybe this is genial idea, because full filmic with 5 controls (white level, shoulder, toe,etc..) which for example is in Unreal Engine 4, is painful to use.


Also interested to hear about your 3D lut settings / what curves you're using as having a close to final render in the VFB would be amazing. Is the ICC profile ticked because of your monitor or does it affect the render in another way?

But I am not ! :- ) It's not ticked on, the tab is closed because I don't use ICC profiles. I have Dell3014 and I keep it hardware calibrated (not inside GPU) in OSD profile. So even if 3dsMax doesn't have calibrated environment it looks correct, and consistent within the rest of my environment (photoshop, desktop, browser), which is set to sRGB ( I use intentionally clamped color spectrum even on wide-gamut monitor because this is what everyone has mostly and it makes my life easier).

The whole tab is unused. It just looks similar because I used very minor post-production in Photoshop, mostly local exposure adjustments manually masked.

Thanks for the detailed reply, it's good to know that I don't need to mess with a million settings to use it correctly. Definitely going to check this out as I've always wanted to try out filmic tone-mapping!

Cheers
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Nekrobul on 2015-10-20, 13:09:58
Preety nice time saving plugin for 19 bucks.

But there are 2 painful things about it.

1 - you can not play with the controls while rendering (because it does not support cVFB)

2 - You have to swich back everytime gama to 1 before saving if you want to have your output in liniar collorspace.

UPD - Changed my mind after i rendered 4k image in 30 mins (around 35 pases) and using this plugin it was looking perfectly clear (shame i can not share it due to comercial agreement with klient)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rhodesy on 2015-10-21, 10:29:52
I wish we had that plugin for C4D. I like the idea of getting everything as close as possible in frame buffer and reducing PS time as that makes making inevitable revisions much less painful. However it can sometimes be quicker making a few tweaks in PS rather than battling and testing in the render engine. Both have pro's and cons. I've never had access to IPR before though so I imagine that really helps.

Juraj, I have a high gamut Dell monitor and its caused me no end of problems with vray for c4d and generally system wide things are over saturated, but PS is fine. I have calibrated many time with my i1 profiler and eventually admitted defeat and bought an sRGB monitor as my primary one. However I have just thought, have you just selected the sRGB mode on your monitor rather than custom (initiated when using a profiler)? I hadn't thought about this but perhaps that will manually clamp the monitors profile to sRGB so when I use my profiler it will ignore the problematic high gamut. Sorry for the OT. Your images have really helped to sell Corona, im definitely keen to switch from Vray full time once the C4D version is more mature.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-22, 13:24:24
Yeah I keep the whole pipeline dumbed down to sRGB, with no regret, the sRGB mode in OSD was so perfectly calibrated from factory (and checking it one year later with x-rite spectrometer still is...so much for "calibrate every month herp derp..." ).
I didn't buy high-end monitor because I cared for wide gamut, I just wanted big, high quality monitor at that time. The rest is with 'make my life easier' opposed to autistic perfectionism.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rhodesy on 2015-10-22, 14:44:25
Thanks, yeah I wont be spending more buying wide gamut again. My clients are going to be sRGB for the foreseeable anyway and if I can get close to a photograph that I see on my screen I'll be happy with that! I'm going to try switching that problem screen to sRGB and re-cal when i get a minute. My current main monitor is the 32inch BenQ 100%sRGB one, definitely recommend it for the price and size.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2015-10-25, 11:12:41
1 - you can not play with the controls while rendering (because it does not support cVFB)

2 - You have to swich back everytime gama to 1 before saving if you want to have your output in liniar collorspace.

1 - You can play with the controls while rendering if you are not using cVFB.
2 - You can disable gamma on output files from the VFB+ preferences.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-25, 11:19:52
Hi Rotem, are you the creator of the plugin ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2015-10-25, 11:26:41
Hi Juraj, yes that is correct.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2015-10-25, 11:34:14
Ah, wonderful :- ) Best plugin I ever came across.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2015-10-25, 11:43:28
Thank you, I'm very glad you're enjoying it :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Bormax on 2015-10-25, 20:13:26

1 - you can not play with the controls while rendering (because it does not support cVFB)

Probably you meant corona's exposure controls. They are working while rendering if you open Render Setup window and change them from there. But you can't change a picture using corona's exposure controls after you stopped the rendering. But you can Resume last render and you'll have this possibility again while corona continues the rendering
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Nekrobul on 2015-10-26, 14:41:00

1 - you can not play with the controls while rendering (because it does not support cVFB)

Probably you meant corona's exposure controls. They are working while rendering if you open Render Setup window and change them from there. But you can't change a picture using corona's exposure controls after you stopped the rendering. But you can Resume last render and you'll have this possibility again while corona continues the rendering

No i ment that in does not work AS corona exposure controls (you have to stop render and open standart VFB first)

But it does not metter much the plugin it self is gerat.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Bormax on 2015-10-26, 15:27:03

1 - you can not play with the controls while rendering (because it does not support cVFB)

Probably you meant corona's exposure controls. They are working while rendering if you open Render Setup window and change them from there. But you can't change a picture using corona's exposure controls after you stopped the rendering. But you can Resume last render and you'll have this possibility again while corona continues the rendering


No i ment that in does not work AS corona exposure controls (you have to stop render and open standart VFB first)

But it does not metter much the plugin it self is gerat.

If you switch VFB Type to Native VBF in System rollout of Render Setup window your pictures will be rendered directly in VBP+. In this case all controls of VBF+ are active during the rendering process.
I use VBF+ since 2012, and yes - that is great!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tallbox on 2015-10-28, 07:50:51
That's right. I'm using it too.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: dj_buckley on 2016-01-28, 23:17:57
Juraj

I see you've adpoted VFB+ into your everyday pipeline, I'm currently trying to do the same.

As you seem comfortable with it, I wanted to pick your brains a little.

It's that dreaded word again - GAMMA.

I just wondered what you've ticked/unticked in the Preferences.  Are you pushing images/elements straight to PS from the VFB+ or are you saving out manually and specifiying gamma at that point.

It's a little different for me as I'm still using VRay a lot too, so it needs to coincide with my Vray Colour Mapping settings too.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-01-28, 23:28:31
I have big problems with gamma and VFB+ and tons of questions I would like from the developer to be answered :- )

Not sure how to iniciate dialogue with him.

I'll try to write some notes for you from my experience.

Some of them from head:

With Vray it's super clear: You use gamma 1.0 in framebuffer with ticked sRGB. VFB+ also let's you do this. All is equal.

In Corona, this is somehow done automatically for you...so although Corona framebuffer stores image internally in gamma 1.0 also, and displays it in 2.2, the VFB+ displays it in 2.2 directly as well, so no need to tick sRGB there.
Which is a problem, because if I render with Corona on RebusFarm, I cannot bring the openExr back into VFB+, which is of course 1.0 back into VFB+ without it looking wrong. I have to tick sRGB, which makes it look different then it looked originally ! I have no idea what is happening there and why.

No matter what combination of Gamma I use (3dsMax, VFB+), the direct transfer button into Photoshop ALWAYS, double-gamma shit. ALWAYS. I tried every single combination.

I can only export stuff correctly from VFB+ using gamma 2.2 (like 16bit Tiff). So I loose the linear option, but I haven't been using linear post-production in long time, it became additional step I am glad to skip.

I believe all these issues are somehow connected with how VFB+ takes information from Corona. I cannot replicate this behavior by manually loading images into VFB+. I would like to maybe hear from the developer on what is going on here.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: dj_buckley on 2016-01-28, 23:35:09
Haha, no worries, let me know what you figure out.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ASaarnak on 2016-01-30, 19:49:32
In Corona, this is somehow done automatically for you...so although Corona framebuffer stores image internally in gamma 1.0 also, and displays it in 2.2, the VFB+ displays it in 2.2 directly as well, so no need to tick sRGB there.
Which is a problem, because if I render with Corona on RebusFarm, I cannot bring the openExr back into VFB+, which is of course 1.0 back into VFB+ without it looking wrong. I have to tick sRGB, which makes it look different then it looked originally ! I have no idea what the fuck is happening there and why.

I can only export stuff correctly from VFB+ using gamma 2.2 (like 16bit Tiff).

This gamma issue gave me headaches, too...It was no fun to get my first images using VFB+ from RebusFarm as they were not usable (should have tried first to see I had to save with gamma 2,2). I had to do a lot of product renders recently and I used batch render. My workflow was: 1. batch render save gamma 2,2 -> 2. open saved image in VFB+ one by one and save....I wish it were: batch render saves right version.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-01-30, 20:52:42
That's what I do as well.

But this has to be wrong, because by doing it this way, I loose the original dynamic range, so I wonder how correct can do tonemapping and other effects work.

But surprisingly, this is the only way that replicates 100perc. using VFB+ directly. So does VFB+ even read the file from Corona in linear way ? Or does it simply copy what it see (2.2) ?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2016-02-01, 18:19:20
Hi guys, I'm the VFB+ developer.
Just got back from vacation, please give me a few days to figure out all these issues and I'll get back to you. I don't have a Corona license so I'll see if I can recreate what you're talking about using the demo.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-01, 18:54:57
They should definitely give you one :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-02-01, 18:56:13
contact us and we will exchange NFR licenses
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-02, 14:00:48
Following Jurajs advice I just gave a try to VFB+, and I'm certainly impressed! That Filmic Tonemapping option is really cool! easy, fast and renders great results.

However I'm having gamma problems too... I've tried a few options, and can't seem to export to EXR with correct gamma values. Whenever I open the EXR in photoshop (through ArionFX plugin) gamma is gone nuts. I'm rendering locally on two machines, no Rebus or any other farm... Any tips on how to set it correctly?

And by the way, I know some of you are using ArionFX too... Just out of curiosity, which tonemapping operator do you use? (I'm simple and use Global: Reinhard 02, I'm unable to get a good looking render with the other operators)

I hope Rotem can get these issues sorted. Thx everyone :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: maru on 2016-02-03, 17:15:09
I just checked VFB+, these are my first steps so maybe I don't understand something, but I can see that:
-it seems that .exrs save and load into PS fine if you go to VFB+ settings and switch file output gamma to "Use 3dsmax output gamma" - then save .exr using the "save image" icon
-I was unable to load the image with correct gamma into PS using the "Send to Photosop" button
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 18:02:15
Agree to both observations :- ).

But now try to import the .exr back into VFB+ from outside. VFB+ reads Corona input directly without the need for gamma compensation (sRGB button), but it requires it if you re-import it back.
Title: Re: Juraj's random stuff and project wips
Post by: momoslav on 2016-02-03, 18:42:51
With little time, we had to create Bonaldo Tufty-time sofa in cloth finish. It's kind of hard, even for Marvelous, but I am quite happy with result like this. Courtesy to Veronika

Already playing with Alpha5. Funny my scene didn't render correctly, so I opted for merging into new scene, and than it rendered correctly again. Filtering Yes or No still cause me some confusion, so at the moment, all maps are unfiltered at 0.1 except for bump which is filtered at 0.1 on summed area.

I guess also bidirectional isn't suitable for this type of scene ? It seems impressively noisy compared to simple path tracing, so I guess it benefits only for much complicated lightning ? Little light sources and caustics,etc.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/9057387497_161f7eb163_o.jpg)

Still incredibly happy for this renderer.

EDIT:

Final version :

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)

Hi Juraj, first your work is highly inspirational. I have problems with HDRi, can you tell me, how is your setting for it in this scene
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9837915804_effd7953e1_o.jpg)? Is it in vray hdri map and what type of color space did you use. Thanks
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 18:54:40
What kind of color-space are you talking about ? I exported the image from Corona using their default highlight compression (Reinhard) at 8 I think. Properly exposed.

Then I rised midtones (lights, but not highlights) in post-production, using curves.

The HDRi was pure Black&White with soft direction light. I adjusted the softness by blurring the HDRi and the strength of it by gamma (higher gamma, less contrast between ambient and direct light).

Lastly, I added grey lower hemisphere (where HDRi usually are black), so that light can also come from ground, just like in reality. This was imho easier solution than making giant plane outside.

The HDRi itself doesn't matter, because in the end, it was just 360px blurred with little bit of white for sun, a mostly grey for Sky and less grey for ground. There might be picture of it here somewhere.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: momoslav on 2016-02-03, 19:43:42
 I mean srgb or inverse gama. Btw my first viz in corona is based mostly on your advices on forum :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 19:48:08
Default, which is inverse gamma. sRGB is for when VrayHDRi is used for general bitmaps with gamma 2.2 (sRGB space). Over time it has evolved as general bitmap loader for Vray, just the name stayed :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-03, 19:50:52
I ended up finding just the same!

I've been busy today, but if i recall correctly... Tonemapping and LUT options didn't translate equally to Photoshop after saving. Anyone experienced this?


I just checked VFB+, these are my first steps so maybe I don't understand something, but I can see that:
-it seems that .exrs save and load into PS fine if you go to VFB+ settings and switch file output gamma to "Use 3dsmax output gamma" - then save .exr using the "save image" icon
-I was unable to load the image with correct gamma into PS using the "Send to Photosop" button
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 21:22:05
Yes I did, when I managed correctly to save .Exr, tonemapping and LUT looked differently. Not sure if this is mistake though, I don't think linear file can keep such attributes correctly. Even Vray drops the LUT when saved, it's only for preview. Corona solves this by clamping (for example when using contrast parameter and still saving as linear exr).

Everything looks correct if I use gamma 2.2 files. Which fits me since that is what I do mostly these days to speed up my workflow, but there is issue with linear files and how they're handled.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-03, 21:37:06
I got one of dubcats photographic LUT profiles and applied it in VfB+, i couldn't relieve how well it looked..! Unfortunately, I tried to replicate the same result with one of the exported EXRs in photoshop and the result was not as good....I have no idea why, but ill keep experimenting :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 22:06:37
The LUT simply pushes midtones up :- ) Very basic operation.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-03, 23:26:07
Just that?!? (now i feel so dumb!) :D

Perhaps I did it in combination with Filmic tonemapping, and that's the reason of my awe...! To my eye, the resulting image had some "creaminess" on the highlights and bolder shadows, basically what I'm used to have photographically. It's quite nice to have such a fast feedback directly while rendering.

I just wish the EXR + filters export (LUT and Tonemapping mainly) gets fixed, and DOF is better implemented (been getting some strange halos). In any case, a great plugin!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-03, 23:50:34
The DOF is indeed little bit strange acting. I also noticed the Halos at low thresholds (the ones you use for narrow lenses in Architectural photography), occasionally. But for shallow DOF it works perfectly. It's indeed like Frischluft, just better, if it didn't have this quirk.

Could have been the Filmic, it's much better at keeping local highlights without flattening everything to earth (like Reinhard very quickly does), and it also retains proper saturation. Reinhard instantly desaturates highlights to point that Sun doesn't even look like Sun.

Generally, with the discussion in how should the new Corona framebuffer be....I have no answer. VFB+ is exactly what I want, I do not want a poor copy of it, reinventing the wheel again. Vray 3.3 which looks almost identical proves this concept. Small, collapsable, with lot of tools that you can switch on and off.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-04, 00:00:34
I'll pray to the CoronaGods tonight so they hear your words of wisdom ;)

I hate Reinhard too, but it's the only thing I've been able to get decent results with in ArionFX (Global Reinhard 02). The easy peasy Filmic in VFB+ is way better!

I tend to use large DOF in my renders because of my clients, they always want everything sharp (i think we talked about it on your facebook long ago). That's when the halos show up, i can't barely go past 0,01 or 0,02 (and can't dial 0,015!)  for shallow DOF it works fine, and it's quite fast
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-04, 00:04:07
i can't barely go past 0,01 or 0,02 (and can't dial 0,015!)

The first day I started using VFB+ I sent email to author about these two issues :- )  Halo at low values, and the fact that even the smallest value 0.01 is not exactly small. Not in the narrow sense that wide lense would produce. Still pretty blurry for archviz stuff.
Never got a reply but I hope he eventually find some time to look into it. It's really great product, I really hope it has some user-base.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-04, 00:09:35
I wrote to him this morning regarding something else and he replied quickly. Let's hope he's reading around here and taking notes.. ;)

At 19€ i bet he's going to get a good user-base with such a good product!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2016-02-06, 16:08:15
The first day I started using VFB+ I sent email to author about these two issues :- )  Halo at low values, and the fact that even the smallest value 0.01 is not exactly small. Not in the narrow sense that wide lense would produce. Still pretty blurry for archviz stuff.
Never got a reply but I hope he eventually find some time to look into it. It's really great product, I really hope it has some user-base.

I'm sorry to say I never received that e-mail. Please try using the contact form on my website.

Regarding lowest possible value, I can easily add another significant digit in the amount spinner so you can enter 0.001 rather than 0.01.

Regarding halo artifacts, it's many times one of:
If neither of these are the issue, please post an example and I'll try to recreate it.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2016-02-06, 16:52:11
I've also been able to confirm the two following issues:


I'll see what I can do about these issues for the next release.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-02-06, 18:15:44


Regarding halo artifacts, it's many times one of:
  • You are using a filtered (anti-aliased) depth buffer.
  • The depth buffer is configured in the wrong direction (white is near vs. white is far), there's a selector button for it in the DOF settings.
If neither of these are the issue, please post an example and I'll try to recreate it.

That is interesting, I've seen the advice about filtering (disabled it) but not the one direction. That one I kept default, which I think is white-near. (the other, is inverted, used for fog masking).

I used the website form to send email :- ) Needless to say I am always distrustful of them compared to traditional mail.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rotem on 2016-02-06, 18:18:13
I used the website form to send email :- ) Needless to say I am always distrustful of them compared to traditional mail.

I wonder how many other messages I haven't received from that form. :\
I tried to PM you my e-mail, but it wouldn't allow me. Perhaps you've blocked that option on the forum.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ikercito on 2016-02-06, 19:52:05
Im away until tomorrow, but i'll try your tips on DOF as soon as i can. Adding another digit should help with more subtle dof, right now i find it quite agressive. I hope the EXR gamma issues get fixed too. Perhaps you should open your own thread to get feedback, so we don't hijack Juraj's? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-09, 14:02:29
Short post update:

Was testing some post-production stuff using LUTs, testing out ArionFx (some cool stuff, but I'll stay with VFB+, even though the glare seems more advanced).
Did 3 new pics in my test project (during single Thursday night): (I am updating them on website : http://talcikdemovicova.com/house-ipes/ ). Now I'll move finally into dusk mood with tons of artificial light.

I wish I could post our commercial projects, but we have such NDAs that I would be homeless overnight : / So... Sometimes in September/October.

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior_web.jpg)

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior2_crop.jpg)

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior3_web.jpg)

If you wonder, how I got clean DOF, I didn't :- ) Not even after 2000 passes :- D (Default 16/2 !!!) I simply used denoised 100perc. version overlayed using Z-Depth mask, so only the DOF in the background is denoised, but nothing else.
I often use z-depth for masking exposure, or color balance, but this worked too.

Post-production step: VFB+ (Filmic mapping, Bloom/Glare, LUT), then Photoshop CameraRaw.

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13613590_871282542976221_3620404185785435221_o.jpg)

Someone asked about the white paint, it's all about the textures. The base I bought from http://www.extremetextures.com/
The rest is 1.4 IOR and 0.7 Specular, because of the wrong fresnel. In fully functioning PBR shader, it would be 1.52 and 1.0. The variance is only though (roughness) glossiness map.

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13613130_871371702967305_7049184643779925493_o.jpg)(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13582040_871364552968020_7843452419998515263_o.jpg)


Actually, I have issue with this (and few other) scene, the GI on the ceiling is absurdly noisy. It's not the material, even if I put 128GB diffuse it's still noisy. Rays/sample are only 26 +/- so this isn't complicated project.
Adaptivity does surprisingly almost nothing, Denoising saves the day (plus 2000 passes !! few hours on my...ehm, 200 threads). So who can guess what I do wrong ? Is it too many high-res textures ? Too many rough materials (everything is specular) ?
Or too much use of 3dsMax composite node ?
Something makes this scene awfully hard to clean out. It's always the ceiling in other scenes too. Sometimes it's backwall. I trace it to some kind of GI+Rough specular occurrence. Something about it can't sample well.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=49334;image)

I think I'll render the scene with 128RGB diffuse override, and then 128RGB low-glossy override to see behind. It's not the lights, the noise is the same with single Sun&Sky there.






Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel.reutersward on 2016-07-09, 16:42:38
Nice new images Juraj! :)

"Or too much use of 3dsMax composite node ?"
I used a composite node with a few rather huge textures for my floor in my "Warehouse Conversion" project, after I removed those the render time were something like 1/4 of the original image.
I don´t remember in detail everything since it was over 1 year ago I did that project. I can of course open up the project and check.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: agentdark45 on 2016-07-09, 16:48:16
Wow! Great work as always Juraj. I would really like to see a more in depth breakdown of your post processing workflow if you've got the time? The difference in the before/after pictures is night and day. You've managed to tame those burnouts and brighten up the scene whilst keeping a perfect level of contrast and saturation, the colors also didn't change too drastically either.

I've never really looked too much into using LUT's - what's the deal with them?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-09, 16:53:51
While I suspect this could be Corona's behavior, if it's 3ds Max I give up :- )

Seriously, in Unreal4, I can use 100 nodes, and it will compile into same-speed shader as zero node 4 texture shader.
I mean, how can, a stupid node, affect actual rendering performance like that ?

It's ridiculous, I can use 100 nodes per shader in UE4, for 100 shaders, and I am afraid to use single map node in 3ds Max. Without composite and various other nodes, I can pretty much go and create 5 times the amount of texture maps I need.

Still, wouldn't that make the render go slower ? Because in this case, it's not going slow, it's going actually rather fast (the rays/sample are quite good, 25 +/-, I have projects where refraction will shoot it into 80+ .
It's just that particular spaces are endlessly noisy (this render starts with 30perc. noise ratio ! My fast projects usually start bellow <10 in first minute). And clean up with 200 +/- passes (default 16/2). But 2000 passes ?

Wow! Great work as always Juraj. I would really like to see a more in depth breakdown of your post processing workflow if you've got the time? The difference in the before/after pictures is night and day. You've managed to tame those burnouts and brighten up the scene whilst keeping a perfect level of contrast and saturation, the colors also didn't change too drastically either.

I've never really looked too much into using LUT's - what's the deal with them?

I plan to publish a blog post on post-production very soon. The LUT's actually don't contribute drastically to the image, they just nicely shift some tones around so you have more natural or interesting look without doing it manually.
Like some particular film emulation might suppres saturation in reds, and lift blues,etc... But some LUTs have a nice (master) contrast curve that can lift midtones and keep crips blacks, so it's almost like tonemapping.
I am getting a helping hand from some very knowledgeable user of this forum :- )

The biggest difference does still make the nice filmic mapping, because it won't destroy the saturation. I can do some gradient exposure overlays, so I only lift exposure inside, I like the contrast in CameraRaw.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: zuliban on 2016-07-09, 17:00:02
great renders juraj! ,im facing the same problems 1.4 noise level at 1% still is ultra noisy ,in white areas it shows the most, it looks like the adaptivity was created in mind for us to use denoiser but then it looks like oil painting even at 2%. im doing now my final renders in 1.3 im having better results. and im just using  i7 4 core i can't imagine you using 200 cores and still having trouble
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-09, 17:05:12
great renders juraj! ,im facing the same problems 1.4 noise level at 1% still is ultra noisy ,in white areas it shows the most, it looks like the adaptivity was created in mind for us to use denoiser but then it looks like oil painting even at 2%. im doing now my final renders in 1.3 im having better results. and im just using  i7 4 core i can't imagine you using 200 cores and still having trouble

Now that you mention it, you are correct it's mostly white surfaces. I wouldn't say if the Albedo was wrong, but mine white surfaces never go above 80perc., no 255/255 nonsense.

I am never able to get to 1perc. outside of product shots :- ) But usually everything is rather clean at 1.7 +/- except for those white surfaces. But these pictures have trouble going bellow <2perc., it takes them those 2000 passes to get there.

PS: Not even close to yours though :- ) You inspired me to to stop being lazy and put some grime and scratches here and there...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-11, 13:23:40
Your leaf specular is very good.:) I try to catch this effect in my scene.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-07-11, 13:25:54
While I suspect this could be Corona's behavior, if it's 3ds Max I give up :- )

Seriously, in Unreal4, I can use 100 nodes, and it will compile into same-speed shader as zero node 4 texture shader.
I mean, how can, a stupid node, affect actual rendering performance like that ?

Slow rendering of texmaps is definitely 3dsmax fault. Each texmap is its own microcosmos, with its own naming conventions, internal layout, approaches to optimization (from "ok" to "horrible"), ... But generally it seems nobody bothered to make the nodes render at least reasonably fast. But it should not affect noise level, only speed. So rays/sample and noise/pass should stay the same, rays/second should decrease.


As for the noise: try rendering crop of the region with all CESSENTIAL passes so we can see which one contains the noise
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-11, 13:29:24
Yes, this would be two things. 3dsMax nodes slow down the rendering, but I don't yet how much. Does at least 2017 make some positive upgrade in this regard :- ) ? Will have to see.

The noise I will investigate as you suggested, will render out all passes to see.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-07-11, 13:33:41
dunno, I have not looked (and I am not sure they update the provided code samples). I only know they fixed the horribly slow color correction node in 2015. Yet the problem that caused it to be so slow is present in many more nodes (falloff for example, although we have fixed that one internally for corona in 1.4). It was just more prominent in CC because it has many inputs. Generally speaking those problematic nodes get slower when they have many UI parameters - even ones that are not used - for example if you use falloff node in fresnel mode, then just the fact that there are additional parameters in object mode will slow it down...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: ASaarnak on 2016-07-11, 15:09:33
Nice new images Juraj! :)

"Or too much use of 3dsMax composite node ?"
I used a composite node with a few rather huge textures for my floor in my "Warehouse Conversion" project, after I removed those the render time were something like 1/4 of the original image.
I don´t remember in detail everything since it was over 1 year ago I did that project. I can of course open up the project and check.

I´ve kinda thought of a connection between crazy rendertimes and 3dsmax composite but I never really tested it, because "how the f* would something like this make such a difference"...I use composite extensively in all my projects. So I should be using CoronaMix´s on top of each other now instead?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: romullus on 2016-07-11, 20:09:09
While I suspect this could be Corona's behavior, if it's 3ds Max I give up :- )

Seriously, in Unreal4, I can use 100 nodes, and it will compile into same-speed shader as zero node 4 texture shader.
I mean, how can, a stupid node, affect actual rendering performance like that ?

Slow rendering of texmaps is definitely 3dsmax fault. Each texmap is its own microcosmos, with its own naming conventions, internal layout, approaches to optimization (from "ok" to "horrible"), ... But generally it seems nobody bothered to make the nodes render at least reasonably fast. But it should not affect noise level, only speed. So rays/sample and noise/pass should stay the same, rays/second should decrease.


As for the noise: try rendering crop of the region with all CESSENTIAL passes so we can see which one contains the noise

I wonder if Corona Standalone could be solution here? Probably not now, but sometime in the future, when obstacles with porting most used max nodes will (could?) be solved.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-07-12, 10:15:31
yes, we can reimplement 3dsmax nodes to make them multi-platform, faster, and bug-free. We already did it for falloff and particle maps
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-13, 15:50:07
Here is simple scene, at early stage of project. But it's already noisy, and kind of slow thus. I attach different versions I tried to pin down the issue. Without any result.

I would gladly give the scene to somebody (Maru,etc..) who could have a look.

As you see, it took 1000 passes ( 2 hours on 160 threads for 2560px, small, preview render ) to get <1perc. noise ratio.

I then started stripping the scene by isolating only the building we see (image 1) for some increase, then diffuse only except windows (always thin mat, but still multiple panes), and last diffuse only, and no windows.
I don't think it gets dramatically less noisy.
I also tried portals, maybe I am stupid, but no matter how I use them, I cannot see any difference. Can I put them inside here ?

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=49552;image)

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: maru on 2016-07-13, 16:21:37
Hi Juraj, sure, I can check the scene. You can host it somewhere and send me the link here: https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/tickets/new or directly to miodek@corona-renderer.com
Also, is it 1.4 or some exotic daily build? :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-13, 16:25:00
Hi Juraj

How do we decide about the pass number on the scene? Is there anything we should pay attention to ? Is there a huge difference

between 1000 pass and 300 pass visually ?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-13, 16:45:55
Hi Juraj, sure, I can check the scene. You can host it somewhere and send me the link here: https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/tickets/new or directly to miodek@corona-renderer.com
Also, is it 1.4 or some exotic daily build? :)

Thank you, sent. 1.4.

If you give me adress I'll send you lot of beers :- ) Or if you need anything.

I'll be thankful for any kind of feedback
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-13, 17:16:02
Hi Juraj

How do we decide about the pass number on the scene? Is there anything we should pay attention to ? Is there a huge difference

between 1000 pass and 300 pass visually ?

Thanks.

Hi, we don't :- ). Usually by 100 passes (no matter what your settings were) a full AA has been completed, so only noise needs to be resolved.

Also passes depend on settings. 100 passes on default 16/2 equal 50 passes on 32/2 (GI/Directlight).

Previously, I had most scenes resolved by 100 passes, 200 at best for complicated scenes. But recently, I have lot of scenes that require 10 times more. I don't know why yet.
Better indicator is noise ratio. I have personally find I can consider scene to be finished under < 1.5perc. ratio. But if the scene has large amount of white surfaces, than it must be even lower, like <1perc.,
because the noise is very obvious in clean white surfaces.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tolgahan on 2016-07-14, 15:58:36
Thanks.When ı got u online I would  ask barrage of questions :))
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-07-14, 16:11:35
Ask away :- ) But I will answer probably over the weekend, have a deadline tomorrow.

Your Time traveller house inspired me to learn 3D in college, so I hope to repay somehow.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-08-18, 19:59:55
I am deep in deadlines, but I see some light at the end of tunnel, and finally some projects to be published.

In some spare time, I put this on web, a full 360 in high-res :- ). Btw using open-source, free Pannellum ! Yeah, say no to Krpano.

http://panorama.talcikdemovicova.com/

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-08-19, 10:13:26
nice, do you also have VR version?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-08-19, 11:43:06
nice, do you also have VR version?

Sadly no. Don't have any kind of glasses for it yet :- ) Don't want any yet either.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: aldola on 2016-08-19, 14:35:52
fantastic juraj, im not a fan of panoramas but i love the detail on these, how do you achieve so detailed bump on the floor? just a map?

congrats
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-08-23, 20:20:08
fantastic juraj, im not a fan of panoramas but i love the detail on these, how do you achieve so detailed bump on the floor? just a map?

congrats

looking at it back now, I don't think it has a very nice bump, I used Bertrand's planks, but they were very low-res (for today standard)  so not good bump out of those, so I overlayed it with simple scratches ( I think the ones that came with cg-source ).
I am absolutely baffled why it looks inverted..

Today, I would use a good normal map made from very low filter (2 px ? ) high-pass filter of the diffuse. ( Diffuse---> High-pass----> B&W----> Contrast----->Normal map generation (Quixel, Pixplant, Bitmap2Material, anything...)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Paul Springer on 2016-09-16, 18:02:21
Juraj, can we go back to topic from a few pages ago for quickie question as relates to EXPOSURE:  Your opinion, best practice workflow in Corona Frame Buffer is to set exposure and leave compression&contrast to 1.00?  (linear) which results maybe on darker side (scene specific+-) of final finished product exposure - because trying to avoid burnout.   

THEN bring back up exposure in VFB+ &/or post to taste?. 

DO you know if MSI consideration based on base exposure (not revised with highlight compressing)? 

Thanks Juraj
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-16, 18:55:03
Exposure is definitely involved in MSI calculations, I think I asked that Ondra once. But I don't know how exactly that works, so my idea is that if you underexpose, MSI might cut away more than it would when compared to neutral/average luminance exposure.

Adaptivity is also I believe, though again, I am not knowledgeable how. But I can tell you I never render (severely) under-exposed. You do that, rise the luminance in post, and find out your black parts are noisy. Actually, very similar behavior to modern day CMOS chips in DSLRs. To get the best quality/dynamic range out of modern day camera, you render 1 stop higher :- ) and tone down in post. This way you get clean dark parts. That's what I do wit my D800. With Corona I render roughly what looks to me like neutral EV.

I render with no-post in Corona framebuffer because I use (used up till now) VFB+ to tonemap. Anyway, I am currently installing 1.5 daily so these things might change once again.

I am getting bit uneasy about delaying any write-up into how I actually do post-production, because it's not stable. I change this stuff routinely like every second month, I approach each project differently, for no other reason than to experiment and self-doubt.

What I am really after is emulate photographic workflow 1:1. I don't want brutal dynamic range and tonemapping, the dream of HDR photographers and CGI scientists, I just want load my image in ACR/Lightroom and pretend I am doing .raw file development. At some times, I almost try hysterically odd measures to reach this point :- ) If I ever reach something that satisfies me roughly, you'll hear of it :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ałtaj on 2016-09-17, 09:54:34
Can i ask where did u get from wooden floors textures in 2 viz above?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-17, 13:35:06
Which ones ?

99perc. of my flooring is modifed CG-Source. The old parisian apartment is from BBB3Viz.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: 3D architect on 2016-09-17, 15:09:42
Juraj,

Very curious about your position for VR. You seem to be very tight about UE4 which is understandable due to workflow and hardware things at the moment. But why not using VR for simple panoramic images? Creating tours? My clients go wild about this, this is a huge step forwards, IMHO, why would you ignore that? :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-17, 15:41:54
Yeah, I guess that will pick-up.

But what I am ignoring ? Majority of work ordered from me are still images. If someone ordered it we would do it, but otherwise I don't propose it much, not a biggest fan of it.

Will eventually jump to true walkthroughs, but hard to do it all in our capacity. Far too much work, far too little time.

The single 360 I did in spare time gave the attention of LYTRO start-up guys though :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Majeranek on 2016-09-18, 11:09:04
Juraj

Could you reveal to us a little bit of a magic which lies behind that sofa shader?
http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2_2560px.jpg

I'm really curious how did you manage to make that whitening in a place where someone would sit. That looks really good.

Do you add any reflection layer to fabrics? I personally always struggle with that, when I'm adding reflection layer fabrics start to look really strange and unnatural.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-18, 14:42:35
Hi,

it's simple, I even had somewhere a screenshot, which I would have to find. It's a fallof, but broken by mask ( so it's nested together in composite node ).

The idea is that as grazing angle approaches, the microfibres catch light but only if they're are in correct direction. I think the fallof is nested twice, one for softer overall gradient, and then one stronger grazing one.

In this particular render there wasn't reflection, or maybe only super weak. With PBR shader I would add some though.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Majeranek on 2016-09-18, 23:16:24
Thanks for the information.
I did some tests and that method works just fine :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2016-09-19, 13:51:23
Exposure is definitely involved in MSI calculations, I think I asked that Ondra once. But I don't know how exactly that works, so my idea is that if you underexpose, MSI might cut away more than it would when compared to neutral/average luminance exposure.

Adaptivity is also I believe, though again, I am not knowledgeable how. But I can tell you I never render (severely) under-exposed. You do that, rise the luminance in post, and find out your black parts are noisy. Actually, very similar behavior to modern day CMOS chips in DSLRs. To get the best quality/dynamic range out of modern day camera, you render 1 stop higher :- ) and tone down in post. This way you get clean dark parts. That's what I do wit my D800. With Corona I render roughly what looks to me like neutral EV.

I render with no-post in Corona framebuffer because I use (used up till now) VFB+ to tonemap. Anyway, I am currently installing 1.5 daily so these things might change once again.

I am getting bit uneasy about delaying any write-up into how I actually do post-production, because it's not stable. I change this stuff routinely like every second month, I approach each project differently, for no other reason than to experiment and self-doubt.

What I am really after is emulate photographic workflow 1:1. I don't want brutal dynamic range and tonemapping, the dream of HDR photographers and CGI scientists, I just want load my image in ACR/Lightroom and pretend I am doing .raw file development. At some times, I almost try hysterically odd measures to reach this point :- ) If I ever reach something that satisfies me roughly, you'll hear of it :- ).

Hi Juraj, first of all congratulations for your excellent work!

The last two years I am trying constantly to find a good photographic workflow, but still I am not very satisfied. I tried ArionFX in the past which in the first hand is great but I always noticed strange saturation in almost all my images during the tone mapping process so I gave up with it. I then thought to output in OpenEXR and in PS save to TIFF 32bit and do all my tone mapping and color correction job in Lightroom which I personally love a lot. Now to complicate things, the Corona team put the filmic curves in VFB which I like a lot so I am confused with which workflow should stuck with! :)

I am still having battles and doubts about the output method from Corona VFB and would be nice to discuss about it here if you want.

Keep up your great work!

Dionysios -
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-19, 15:40:32
To add on confusion, I installed 1.5 daily only yesterday and I somehow dislike the filmic there. I hadn't yet done any comparison but it looked bad in interiors. I went back to Reinhard (8) in this particular case. I guess no single filmic curve can be ideal for all situations. For scenes without too many dynamic range spikes ( anything that's not interior ) default filmic is great because it retains large portion of midtones linear. But for interior, the clamp happens too high, and the linear midtones end up looking disjointed with the clamped top. Saturated and odd.

I also dislike ArionFX a lot, it has every single ugly tonemapper on market that ever existed. ( saturation, halos,etc.. ) they are very hard to use with too many settings. Both global and local versions. It would take too much tinkering to come up with something natural.

Yes I am aware some renown industry professionals have good results with them, but their results aren't what I would call natural, but instead the popular VintageKodak/Instagram/"but it's oh so photoreal" look. Try to apply it to clean, bright interior and it shows its ugly side.

I also like Lightroom a lot, it is btw the same engine as in ACR in Photoshop, it works identically, same toolset. And ACR freaks out with 32bit files if you use 2012 process (it's possible to get unchanged flat look using the 2010 but it's 100perc. guarantee either).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2016-09-19, 16:23:34
To add on confusion, I installed 1.5 daily only yesterday and I somehow dislike the filmic there. I hadn't yet done any comparison but it looked bad in interiors. I went back to Reinhard (8) in this particular case. I guess no single filmic curve can be ideal for all situations. For scenes without too many dynamic range spikes ( anything that's not interior ) default filmic is great because it retains large portion of midtones linear. But for interior, the clamp happens too high, and the linear midtones end up looking disjointed with the clamped top. Saturated and odd.

I also dislike ArionFX a lot, it has every single ugly tonemapper on market that ever existed. ( saturation, halos,etc.. ) they are very hard to use with too many settings. Both global and local versions. It would take too much tinkering to come up with something natural.

Yes I am aware some renown industry professionals have good results with them, but their results aren't what I would call natural, but instead the popular VintageKodak/Instagram/"but it's oh so photoreal" look. Try to apply it to clean, bright interior and it shows its ugly side.

I also like Lightroom a lot, it is btw the same engine as in ACR in Photoshop, it works identically, same toolset. And ACR freaks out with 32bit files if you use 2012 process (it's possible to get unchanged flat look using the 2010 but it's 100perc. guarantee either).

God... So glad to read your answers as I thought I was the only getting crazy with all this stuff!

So at the end how do you deal with Lightroom and 32bit at the end?
Are you using VFB+ and then output from Corona in 32bit or 16bit? Sorry for asking but lately I have a lot of doubts on which workflow to choose due to the limitations we both wrote above.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-19, 17:13:17
I haven't been using 32bit output for a while. In past months I used pre-dominantly VFB+ filmic ( with single midtones boosting, slightly contrast adding LUT, but with no color bending ), then send it to PS as 16bit tiff and continue from there as I would develop my raw photography.

My head hurts from this every second month though :- )

I would like to see how the Fstorm curve looks like, I think Vlado was trying to make a LUT of it last time I checked chaosgroup forum. I would probably be most satisfied with full filmic curve, but I guess it would be confusing for 90perc. of users, who knows, maybe even for me. But full filmic lets you specify when the shoulder happens, how fast it rolls, how boosted the linear section should be. I want to tweak it to resemble the one NIKON cameras have.

I would like to eventually do some post-production in framebuffer maybe, but those tools would have to work in sRGB/2.2 space, and that would probably collide with the option to export linear files. For now my ideal dream is tonemapping resembling the camera response curves modern DSLRs have ( because current CMOS chips are linear a tonal curve is applied ), with some contrast LUT only for preview reasons ( like viewfinder showing your the jpeg processing to give you estimate of "nice look" ) and then do everything in ACR.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: -Ben-Battler- on 2016-09-19, 17:22:21
Since playing with the 1.5 DB I often use both HC and Filmic at the same time. I sometimes feel like Filmic doesn't compress the highlights as efficiently as HC but using both together I feel like I get the good stuff of both worlds.

Maybe this is from a technical side fubar, I wouldn't know ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2016-09-19, 17:26:03
I haven't been using 32bit output for a while. In past months I used pre-dominantly VFB+ filmic ( with single midtones boosting, slightly contrast adding LUT, but with no color bending ), then send it to PS as 16bit tiff and continue from there as I would develop my raw photography.

My head hurts from this every second month though :- )

I would like to see how the Fstorm curve looks like, I think Vlado was trying to make a LUT of it last time I checked chaosgroup forum. I would probably be most satisfied with full filmic curve, but I guess it would be confusing for 90perc. of users, who knows, maybe even for me. But full filmic lets you specify when the shoulder happens, how fast it rolls, how boosted the linear section should be. I want to tweak it to resemble the one NIKON cameras have.

I would like to eventually do some post-production in framebuffer maybe, but those tools would have to work in sRGB/2.2 space, and that would probably collide with the option to export linear files. For now my ideal dream is tonemapping resembling the camera response curves modern DSLRs have ( because current CMOS chips are linear a tonal curve is applied ), with some contrast LUT only for preview reasons ( like viewfinder showing your the jpeg processing to give you estimate of "nice look" ) and then do everything in ACR.

Thanks for getting back and I agree 100% on all this.

I feel sorry we still don't have a good and professional solution to this. I guess the two month's headache will stay for a while in our heads...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-19, 17:43:24
Since playing with the 1.5 DB I often use both HC and Filmic at the same time. I sometimes feel like Filmic doesn't compress the highlights as efficiently as HC but using both together I feel like I get the good stuff of both worlds.

Maybe this is from a technical side fubar, I wouldn't know ;)

Yeah it's crap solution but I see exactly why it gives you good result :- ) By combining it you get the super long shoulder of Reinhard (this does heavy, but also smooth compression) but stop before you loose all contrast and saturation and clip that part with filmic.

Single full filmic would let you do that.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: -Ben-Battler- on 2016-09-20, 09:17:26
Yes that's exactly how I am working with it.

So in VFB+ full Filmic is provided? Or is it a differently implemented as well? Because to me it feels like the Corona Filmic and the VFB+ Filmic act similarly.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-20, 14:22:08
Yes that's exactly how I am working with it.

So in VFB+ full Filmic is provided? Or is it a differently implemented as well? Because to me it feels like the Corona Filmic and the VFB+ Filmic act similarly.

Very similar, almost identical. Corona does slightly more crunchy image by using HL alone, and that is bit ugly in highly dynamic interiors with warm materials.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tallbox on 2016-09-23, 11:04:04
I haven't been using 32bit output for a while. In past months I used pre-dominantly VFB+ filmic ( with single midtones boosting, slightly contrast adding LUT, but with no color bending ), then send it to PS as 16bit tiff and continue from there as I would develop my raw photography.

My head hurts from this every second month though :- )

I would like to see how the Fstorm curve looks like, I think Vlado was trying to make a LUT of it last time I checked chaosgroup forum. I would probably be most satisfied with full filmic curve, but I guess it would be confusing for 90perc. of users, who knows, maybe even for me. But full filmic lets you specify when the shoulder happens, how fast it rolls, how boosted the linear section should be. I want to tweak it to resemble the one NIKON cameras have.

I would like to eventually do some post-production in framebuffer maybe, but those tools would have to work in sRGB/2.2 space, and that would probably collide with the option to export linear files. For now my ideal dream is tonemapping resembling the camera response curves modern DSLRs have ( because current CMOS chips are linear a tonal curve is applied ), with some contrast LUT only for preview reasons ( like viewfinder showing your the jpeg processing to give you estimate of "nice look" ) and then do everything in ACR.

Hi,Juraj.
Could you explain how do you use VFB+ with saved corona exr. files?  I have tried to open the files from VFB+ but they appear dark and with maximum burned areas. If I try to render trough the VFB+ it renders trough normal max frame buffer? :(
Thanks.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-23, 15:30:44
Did you use latest VFB+ ? It loads .exr files correctly (with gamma 1.0), and than in exposure applies 2.2 preview. (This is the same Corona does, it just doesn't show you).

Previously there was a bug that causes incorrect gamma though but it was long-time fixed.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: tallbox on 2016-09-23, 17:13:34
Did you use latest VFB+ ? It loads .exr files correctly (with gamma 1.0), and than in exposure applies 2.2 preview. (This is the same Corona does, it just doesn't show you).

Previously there was a bug that causes incorrect gamma though but it was long-time fixed.
Hmm, now I see. Unfortunately, I use 2.6 because I have tried the trial 2.7 and has some bug or something that doesn't appear in the max frame buffer. The Plus icon just it's not there no matter how/what I do. ((
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-25, 00:09:08
Here's a difference between old shader behavior, and new (fixed) PBR mode. Both materials are the same otherwise (1.52 IOR, full reflection 1.0/255), only the glossiness value has been adjusted to match (thanks to Dubcat's chart).

If this doesn't tell you why this is good, then I don't know what :- ) I'll write a short primer next week to get people started.

OLD on left. PBR on right.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=52488;image)(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=52490;image)

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2016-09-29, 15:20:22
Juraj, a question for you:

The Corona VFB is getting really great now, now we have LUT support, we miss the aberration effect but I think this last will come soon.
I did some tests today and I noticed that VFB+ if compared to the new updated Corona VFB when it comes to Glare and Bloom effects is way too slow and I like more now the Corona's ones. The effects seem more natural to me and more efficient. Strangely the VFB+ lacks sensitivity on those effects and is hard to me to adjust them and get a realistic Bloom or Glare feeling.

Did you noticed the same? Just for curiosity...

Thanks,

Dionysios -
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-09-29, 15:38:45
Yes, Corona's glare&bloom is easier to use, and faster. Right now for me VFB+ no longer makes sense to use. In 1.5 we have Contrast exactly as in Photoshop, LUT support.

The only thing I am missing in Corona's glare is a mask, because the moment the effect is dominant, it's very artificial star/flare :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Dionysios.TS on 2016-09-29, 15:56:52
Great, we're in the same boat! :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: aardej on 2016-10-11, 15:30:21
Hi Jurja,

Can I PM you with a question?

Thanks,

Aaron
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-11, 15:32:24
yup, the second email on website.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: aardej on 2016-10-11, 15:41:22
Great thanks!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-12, 19:57:24
So not really posting anything worthy lately, I just really wish November comes and I can post lot of the stuff we worked our the year, way different than our usual stuff.

Until then...some brief review of 1.5. Well, it does rock, that's for sure. A small look into current post-production workflow of fast preview:

1) Pure linear
2) Highlight compression in low values (not filmic), together with filmic shadows to counter-balance the ugly milky blacks.
3) Add LUT and contrast. At this point, save as 16bit tiff and head to Photoshop ACR or Lightroom. I still do some gradient kind of adjustments a lot. But I can treat the render at this stage as pseudo "photo .raw".

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53311;image)
(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53313;image)
(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53315;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-12, 20:07:53
One more, Reinhard with it's bleached look and milky blacks, very low values not to flatten too much (instead slightly under-exposed), then LUT+ contrast.

PBR materials work flawlessly, can't imagine why anyone would be nostalgic after the old fresnel (supposedly some people are), this saves so much of the handy-work, but most importantly,
not sure if people realize that, correct fresnel means the material will work in every angle and light situation. Previously I had to tweak specular level based on camera and light. Dull could become glossy and that made option of creating universal material library pointless.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53317;image)(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53319;image)

As can be seen, post-production ramps up the contrast a lot, which is why it's important to follow the rules and keep albedo within correct range ( "artistic" [30-240] sRGB; "strict" [50-240] sRGB; I follow the strict method, my blackest black is 50 sRGB )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: belly on 2016-10-12, 22:06:30
Hi Juray

The LUT you are talking about, is this a home made one, or one which comes with the Corona installer?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-12, 22:12:29
Secret custom one, "NiceLUT.cube" :- )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: snakebox on 2016-10-13, 07:20:20
Secret custom one, "NiceLUT.cube" :- )

Do you make your LUT in PS? Setup an early look in PS on early renders, then save it out as a LUT for the framebuffer?  I'm just curious. Looks good.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-13, 15:26:33
Nope...not yet :- ) Although Dubcat's guides are phenomenal for this.

Anyway, that is pretty cool workflow for animation&esp. Real time, but here I wanted to specifically avoid going back&forth.

My idea of framebuffer post-production, isn't actually to produce finalized image, save it as jpeg and send to client. Contrary to what might someone think, I do like post-production a lot and still make some serious adjustments. I just don't want those adjustments to be the typical CGI corrections, to turn something shit into something usable, and only then work on it creatively. I want the image from framebuffer, to look like the nice jpeg preview you see when you shoot with DSLR. It looks good, but still warrant post-production from creative side (compositing new elements, making local color choices,etc..).

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: agentdark45 on 2016-10-13, 16:42:29
Wow, that's a huge difference between the 2nd and 3rd images! Is the 3rd image post processed or the pure corona output? Went from CGI to SLR.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-13, 16:44:32
Wow, that's a huge difference between the 2nd and 3rd images! Is the 3rd image post processed or the pure corona output? Went from CGI to SLR.

I pretty much just added flare and some local tweaks. It looked pretty identical on first sight :- ).

Can't wait for curves, that will be another level.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-14, 16:41:48

In meantime, imma go upgrade to 10gbe because all those 8k textures aren't being friendly to 1gbit network..


As I'm currently planning my studio implementation I wonder if i have to do this aswell. I'm starting from scratch so I need to build a futur proof installation. But it cost a lot. Network adapter, NAS, cables, rooter.... What's more, it looks like SSDs are a must have to enjoy real capabilities of 10Gbe (in raid 1 for security purpose). Let us know your findings !

I will post a guide how I went about it, it's not that expensive actually if you choose specific products and I stayed conservative, no SPF optics or Infiniband stupidity. Traditional copper wiring with RJ45, CAT6a cables, and Netgear prosafe series. You can do it under 1.5k for small office. I think it's almost the same price as regular link-aggregated setup, but much more useful.

Actually it's not even so much textures I realized :- ) It's Distributed .exr dumps. If you render high-res (like 8k), that's almost 40 Mpx, you need to set the pixel transfer to atleast 1/10 of this to even see any distributed benefit in real-time, otherwise it will just keep sending like 50 strips forever....not very useful visually. And sometimes distributed malfunction and doesn't even finish sending the remaining data outside of those strips in the end. Uh.
So 8k render, with tons of passes like Lightmixer, that amount to heavy, heavy amount of bandwidth. Each node will be sending like 1GB .exr every minute, that takes 12 seconds over 1gbit network, so 5 nodes will totally saturate it (when reaching the master workstation).

People with backburner animation rendering are fine, you can have even 40 PCs over 1gbit in such case, it will just take longer time for them to start-up the first-time they need to cache textures, but then it's breeze. But damn, I like distributed to be instant and useful in real-time.

Having a good synced back-up instead of ssd raid is more useful these days. There is very small chance SSDs will fail, if ever, but if they do it's usually because of reasons that would flail the other ones in raid also.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2016-10-14, 17:45:04
yeah, SFP+ is just overkill for a home network. I plan to by a QNAP TS-531p (https://www.qnap.com/fr-fr/product/model.php?II=210) with their 10GBASE-T card and link evrything with RJ45. To me, it's the best performance/price ratio.

Edit: if you can advice me on a cheap 10GBe card model, it would be nice !
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-14, 22:30:53
Heh, I watched that particular NAS long time ago, because it's the cheapest that has option of 10gbe card. But honestly, together it comes up to 1000 euros, and for that, you can just build regular fileserver PC, which will be superior in every single sense. Which is what I did, I used my old i7 2600k as fileserver with Windows 2012 server.

I still have Synology NAS but I wouldn't use them as fileservers, even the best completely pale in performance to normal PC/Server, while the price is pretty much identical.

There's tons of Intel dual NICs 10gbe RJ45 cards on ebay for 200 euros a piece, or less. SFP+ cards can be bought for 40 bucks but like I said I am avoiding those for the hassle (and also because it's hard to find good affordable switch that has a lot of 10gbe SFP+ ports, usually it's only 2-4 at most and then billion 1gbit NICs).

The Netgear ProSafe run from 800+ euros for 8 full 10Gbit NICs. That's as good deal as it can get. Asus released an unmanaged switch with 8x 1gbit NICs and 2x10gbit nics for 200 euros only. Really good deal as secondary switch if needed. I'll get both.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2016-10-15, 16:33:16
mmmmmm interesting.. My actual machine (2600k OCed to 4.4GHz, gtx 770) could be my fileserver.. I originally planned to use it as a spawner but... Thanks for the idea, I'll think about it
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-15, 16:43:30
Actually I use it as a general server, there's lot more stuff running. It's syncing stuff, doing back-ups, hosting some occasional web stuff, licence machine, etc. I back-up to regular Synology NAS from there.

I had it right under my hands, its performance no longer useful compared to some xeon machines I have (each one is like 6-8 times faster, so what is the point to keep them), and it saved me the investment into QNAP.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2016-10-15, 17:20:02
Actually that sounds great. I could save the money from the QNAP to build a cheap spawner like the one in your guide. Cheaper, better performances in every single aspects of the infrastructure.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: philippelamoureux on 2016-10-18, 08:13:16
Short post update:

Was testing some post-production stuff using LUTs, testing out ArionFx (some cool stuff, but I'll stay with VFB+, even though the glare seems more advanced).
Did 3 new pics in my test project (during single Thursday night): (I am updating them on website : http://talcikdemovicova.com/house-ipes/ ). Now I'll move finally into dusk mood with tons of artificial light.

I wish I could post our commercial projects, but we have such NDAs that I would be homeless overnight : / So... Sometimes in September/October.

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior_web.jpg)

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior2_crop.jpg)

(http://talcikdemovicova.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exterior3_web.jpg)

If you wonder, how I got clean DOF, I didn't :- ) Not even after 2000 passes :- D (Default 16/2 !!!) I simply used denoised 100perc. version overlayed using Z-Depth mask, so only the DOF in the background is denoised, but nothing else.
I often use z-depth for masking exposure, or color balance, but this worked too.

Post-production step: VFB+ (Filmic mapping, Bloom/Glare, LUT), then Photoshop CameraRaw.

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13613590_871282542976221_3620404185785435221_o.jpg)

Someone asked about the white paint, it's all about the textures. The base I bought from http://www.extremetextures.com/
The rest is 1.4 IOR and 0.7 Specular, because of the wrong fresnel. In fully functioning PBR shader, it would be 1.52 and 1.0. The variance is only though (roughness) glossiness map.

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13613130_871371702967305_7049184643779925493_o.jpg)(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13582040_871364552968020_7843452419998515263_o.jpg)


Actually, I have issue with this (and few other) scene, the GI on the ceiling is absurdly noisy. It's not the material, even if I put 128GB diffuse it's still noisy. Rays/sample are only 26 +/- so this isn't complicated project.
Adaptivity does surprisingly almost nothing, Denoising saves the day (plus 2000 passes !! few hours on my...ehm, 200 threads). So who can guess what I do wrong ? Is it too many high-res textures ? Too many rough materials (everything is specular) ?
Or too much use of 3dsMax composite node ?
Something makes this scene awfully hard to clean out. It's always the ceiling in other scenes too. Sometimes it's backwall. I trace it to some kind of GI+Rough specular occurrence. Something about it can't sample well.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=49334;image)

I think I'll render the scene with 128RGB diffuse override, and then 128RGB low-glossy override to see behind. It's not the lights, the noise is the same with single Sun&Sky there.


This scene looks so good! Both the architecture and the renderings :-)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-21, 04:39:00
Bought Vizpark Walls & Tiles. Painful learning curve... I think I have biggest problem using the damn bercon procedurals from presets (had no good textures of mine, last minute job), I just don't get procedural stuff. Will photo-source or cut some of those new PetersenTegl stuff and avoid bercon. Doesn't look like we're gonna be friends.

But waiting for displacement is even more painful :- D Here is one of 80 thread nodes...doing 40 minutes + routine of pre-calculating. Master workstation is twice slower but did it under 20 minutes (nothing amazing either). DR nodes always half-ass the whole pre-render phasing.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53700;image)

Edit: Damn, Walls & Tiles really fuck-up during distributed, like whole different seed, behavior or something, the heck. No error message from Corona. Anyone use this stuff here ?

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: steyin on 2016-10-21, 22:36:21
I stopped using W&T as I found it easier to just setup brick/tiles mats using bercon mats alone. I usually photograph brick from sample boards and create variations in PS, then plug those into a bercon tile map with multi-texture map.


I remember W&T having issues with bump and displacement for Corona, but Vizpark claims they fixed that error. Don't know how true that is as I was still having issues with bump maps. The bump map fix for using bercon tiles posted here (https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,9659.msg83927.html#msg83927) works for me with just using bercon maps alone, so I'd try it with W&T too. Never tested it with W&T, but if it indeed works maybe I'd go back to using the plugin.

Can't speak on the DR issue though.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-10-21, 22:45:28
Hm, pure bercon + multi-texture sounds easier. The whole inter-connected network throws me off, I like easy, straightforward stuff.

Would you mind posting screenshot of this setup when you have some time ? (no rush)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: steyin on 2016-10-24, 21:29:28
Hm, pure bercon + multi-texture sounds easier. The whole inter-connected network throws me off, I like easy, straightforward stuff.

Would you mind posting screenshot of this setup when you have some time ? (no rush)


This is the most recent setup I have from a current project (with the bump fix), though I'm not using displacement and the material can be refined more, but it works for our level or presentation images. Also attached the setup for the bercon map.



Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: PMendes on 2016-11-03, 13:18:40
Hm, pure bercon + multi-texture sounds easier. The whole inter-connected network throws me off, I like easy, straightforward stuff.

Would you mind posting screenshot of this setup when you have some time ? (no rush)


This is the most recent setup I have from a current project (with the bump fix), though I'm not using displacement and the material can be refined more, but it works for our level or presentation images. Also attached the setup for the bercon map.

Can you share a image/render of this setup? :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: steyin on 2016-11-04, 18:07:48

Can you share a image/render of this setup? :D


I'll see if I can manage a close up crop as the project is confidential right now. I'll be running some material setup tests with this in a few weeks anyway to work out some kinks and account for displacement (I hope). Probably going to modify the current Corona or Siger shaderball to have a square setup to show off brick/stone materials better (I find the round shapes don't do these materials justice, nor are surfaces with them round most of the time).


Will definitely start a thread for it in time.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2016-11-06, 19:10:27
OT/ this thread should be really renamed ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: sht on 2016-12-02, 09:12:32
One more, Reinhard with it's bleached look and milky blacks, very low values not to flatten too much (instead slightly under-exposed), then LUT+ contrast.

PBR materials work flawlessly, can't imagine why anyone would be nostalgic after the old fresnel (supposedly some people are), this saves so much of the handy-work, but most importantly,
not sure if people realize that, correct fresnel means the material will work in every angle and light situation. Previously I had to tweak specular level based on camera and light. Dull could become glossy and that made option of creating universal material library pointless.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53317;image)(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=53319;image)

As can be seen, post-production ramps up the contrast a lot, which is why it's important to follow the rules and keep albedo within correct range ( "artistic" [30-240] sRGB; "strict" [50-240] sRGB; I follow the strict method, my blackest black is 50 sRGB )

This sounds like a decent workflow!
One question about the black level in your albedo map. If you want to do let's say a black wood you would not go below 50 sRGB in your albedo map? And instead add contrast in post to compensate the washed out look? Is that how it works?
Another thing are you using simple or photographic exposure in your images?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: mferster on 2016-12-02, 23:11:02
I think It's more to do that there really are no "true black" materials in the world. other than perhaps vantablack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantablack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantablack)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubk34-nFvGM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubk34-nFvGM)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2016-12-08, 16:48:13
Well, both :- ).

It comes from those measured tables. Indeed, the "blackness" comes from post-production, like it does in real-camera, where you have to add S-curve (either in profile,  or during .raw conversion).

Quote
Another thing are you using simple or photographic exposure in your images?

Unless I am matching a backplate, I use simple EV exposure. (and if I have Motion Blur and DOF, I control them separately, unconnected to exposure).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: husherson2 on 2016-12-31, 17:20:49
Wow, these pdfs are amazing.

I've never thought that after hours of tutorials and courses I would feel that I've learned from 3 short pdfs files.

Even though I was born and raised in VRay, and still struggle with Corona sometimes, these little fundamentals apply to any render engine. 

Thanks Juraj!!
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-01-17, 18:56:16
Juraj, I remember you planned to switch your network to 10 GBe, you should look at this :

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00B46AEE6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I just grabbed one of these.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-01-17, 19:05:26
Juraj, I remember you planned to switch your network to 10 GBe, you should look at this :

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00B46AEE6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I just grabbed one of these.
 

I already have it 🙂 Everything running on 10gbase here
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-01-17, 20:17:20
Glad to hear ! What are your feedback ? Did your fileserver run full SSDs ?

edit: 🙂
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rawalanche on 2017-01-17, 20:22:15
:)

How... how did you? Where do i get that smiley!

EDIT: 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Ohhh... it's an emoji! Awesome 🙂

🙂
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-01-17, 20:31:39
Lol, I typed it from phone, didn't know it does something unique 🙂

Yup, running all SSD ( Intel P3600 & Samsung 850 evo, 8TB total ). Runs fantastically except the router sounds like airplane takeoff and the Intel cards take serious performance (nothing for weak pcs)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-01-17, 20:35:40
Lol, I typed it from phone, didn't know it does something unique 🙂

Yup, running all SSD ( Intel P3600 & Samsung 850 evo, 8TB total ). Runs fantastically except the router sounds like airplane takeoff and the Intel cards take serious performance (nothing for weak pcs)

😮 That seems to seriously rock !

(Looks like you started an emoji war..)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Rawalanche on 2017-01-17, 20:48:11
They get even squished in italic. That's so adorable! 😄
🙂

Sorry for derailing the thread 🙂
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-01-19, 19:13:39
Runs fantastically except the router sounds like airplane takeoff

I've just installed mine ... OMG that thing is so loud ! I'm a bit disappointed.. That and the Z10PE-D16 boot time... I do not know how much unnecessary shit it does before booting. There must be a way to disable those.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-01-19, 19:23:26
I am installing Noctuas 40mm there, 5V 3pin should fit. Will let you know how it goes
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-01-19, 21:22:18
I am posting some crap so I better post some pics here at least :- )

Having a lot of fun with this project right now.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=58068;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: hrvojezg00 on 2017-01-20, 09:02:32
Nice and clean, great job! Did you take the background shot?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: melviso on 2017-01-21, 12:26:49
Love the lighting and soft shadows. Is the background a backplate or hdri?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-01-21, 15:01:34
Nice and clean, great job! Did you take the background shot?
Love the lighting and soft shadows. Is the background a backplate or hdri?

Lighting is basic Sun&Sky :- ). Background is regular backplate photo, a stitched panorama from 2 photos.

Client (well I did..) contracted photographer to do the shooting this time (I guess he thought we would take it as vacation...), and we gave him instructions to shoot HDRi too, but he didn't quite follow the instructions ( some odd angles, and automatic shutter and white balance, it's nightmare to stitch properly into something nice...).

We might need to reshoot it ourselves because I still need those HDRis for animation.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: melviso on 2017-01-22, 01:25:23
Yeah.. It's really cool how Corona sun and sky can give really very good results :-).

These things do happen. Goodluck with the project. ;-) Love the view, looks great especially from an atmospheric and lighting point of view. Can I ask what city this is?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: YURII on 2017-01-23, 07:30:56
Such a clean image, going to be good! Whats that black spot on TV? Looks like you were using hemispheric HDRI or something and damn...those oversized woman sandals :D
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-02-11, 20:57:28
I am installing Noctuas 40mm there, 5V 3pin should fit. Will let you know how it goes

Did you manage to get something acceptable ? I become crazy with that thing next to me !
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-02-12, 08:47:11
I am installing Noctuas 40mm there, 5V 3pin should fit. Will let you know how it goes

Did you manage to get something acceptable ? I become crazy with that thing next to me !

Hi Fluss, yeah, I did. I added those fans mentioned above.

It's not total silence...but it's tremendeously better. Alternative is drilling 120/140mm circle above and adding thin fan.

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-02-12, 08:55:23
Adding bedroom w.i.p. This project will be soon finished, need to push for big garden/pool and terrace. It's very pedantic, moving slow, and we're soon gonna relax with very different kind of project, one with full freedom to make.. almost anything. With designing on our side.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=59217;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Majeranek on 2017-02-12, 11:13:46
Really nice. Especially that the bed. Could you say something about the bedding shader ;>?

BTW. Juraj, which casing fans you uses with Z10PE-16WS? I've bought two different types and still can't setup RPM and they're working at full speed all the time... Quite noisy.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-02-12, 11:38:47
Really nice. Especially that the bed. Could you say something about the bedding shader ;>?

BTW. Juraj, which casing fans you uses with Z10PE-16WS? I've bought two different types and still can't setup RPM and they're working at full speed all the time... Quite noisy.

It's off-white color (no diffuse texture), PBR, 1.52 IOR, full white spec (no reflection map, but fallof node so it gets progressively glossier towards the edge in glossiness slot), and mix of normal map for the pattern and two additional bump maps for linen micro-bump and some additional wrinkles.

For setting RPM did you buy the PWM version (Noctua A14 PWM) and connected it to correct inputs on board so that you see them in bios (4-pin slots) ? I use those in some builds, although later I just bought the fixed rpm version ( A14 FLX and even A14 ULN)and connected it to 3-pin voltage modulator on case (fractal XL R2), running it undervolted down to 5 or 7v (5v on nodes, 7v on workstation due to gpu).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Majeranek on 2017-02-12, 12:14:15
It's off-white color (no diffuse texture), PBR, 1.52 IOR, full white spec (no reflection map, but fallof node so it gets progressively glossier towards the edge in glossiness slot), and mix of normal map for the pattern and two additional bump maps for linen micro-bump and some additional wrinkles.

For setting RPM did you buy the PWM version (Noctua A14 PWM) and connected it to correct inputs on board so that you see them in bios (4-pin slots) ? I use those in some builds, although later I just bought the fixed rpm version ( A14 FLX and even A14 ULN)and connected it to 3-pin voltage modulator on case (fractal XL R2), running it undervolted down to 5 or 7v (5v on nodes, 7v on workstation due to gpu).

So you didn't make any falloff trick in diffuse.

Yeah, these are PWM 4-pin and still nothing happens when I'm setting them to 50%, 10% or even 0% in BIOS. I think I'll try another manufacturer.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Fluss on 2017-02-15, 15:42:39
I am installing Noctuas 40mm there, 5V 3pin should fit. Will let you know how it goes

Did you manage to get something acceptable ? I become crazy with that thing next to me !

Hi Fluss, yeah, I did. I added those fans mentioned above.

It's not total silence...but it's tremendeously better. Alternative is drilling 120/140mm circle above and adding thin fan.

Glad to hear ! I'm gonna pick 2 of those. Thanks for the tip ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: worx on 2017-02-16, 07:28:55
Hi, could someone explain to me what PBR is ? I keep seeing people talking about it? I have no clue what that is or even how to turn it on, thnx
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: TomG on 2017-02-16, 14:42:49
Physically-based rendering is what it stands for. It is enabled by default in all materials, under the Advanced options section. It should never be disabled :) The checkbox to disable it exists to maintain compatibility with scenes from earlier versions of Corona - on loading an old scene, PBR mode will be disabled, and if necessary, the Legacy mode will be enabled - but when creating a new scene, should just leave those at the defaults of PBR mode on. For an old scene, you can go through and uncheck those to use the latest material system, but it may change the look of a material so may need some adjustments.

The video on how to approach creating materials with PBR mode on is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NaJEbyjOcw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NaJEbyjOcw)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-15, 13:47:24
Feeling slow lately. Some darker mood wip from current commercial project :- ) Attached in mid-res.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=60996;image)

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=60998;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: daniel266 on 2017-03-16, 00:09:19
wich one is mid rez??? Lool both are great!
Were is the light comming from in the bath scene?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-16, 10:15:26
wich one is mid rez??? Lool both are great!
Were is the light comming from in the bath scene?

You got me :- ) I overdid it.. will scale it back. The light is of course coming from the window/door thing which ivy, but I under-exposed it as the version with properly exposed outside looked too bleak. The light on the right is boosted.
This space presented a dilemma... it will be not very bright with natural light in real life, but I still need to present it so it appears attractive. If I show too much over-exposure from light source... it will hint the client that this is in fact dark space.

But I will go back to previous compromise here :- ).
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: NicoB on 2017-03-16, 11:26:35
Hej Juraj,

I do like the darker mood.
The ones you usually post are much brighter.

Well it´s often based on clients request,
but I do like the darker mood much more.
Makes it easier to set some focus, I think.

Did you notice the tiling on the upper beams?
(Attached copy).

Also if I may want to ask about the plant model you´re using beside the bed (?).
Most of the plants I find are way to small to be impressive, but these look decent!

All the best, I really like your works!
Nico

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-16, 11:37:13
Indeed, I poorly copied them :- ) This is wip preview, so I will correct them. (and I got so many corrections :- ( man I sure enjoy real-estate projects lot more).

The plants are from 3dsky ! You sometimes find really nice stuff there. I make new materials for them though.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Geezer on 2017-03-16, 11:49:26
Really nice smooth mood :)

1. The sharpness of the thextures is coming from disabling the filtering and lowering the blur?

2. What did you use for the environment light?  the clean fresh feeling of the light is from desaturating the hdri/sky ?

3. Are you using photographic settings or the EV value for your camera?

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-16, 12:01:09
Really nice smooth mood :)

1. The sharpness of the thextures is coming from disabling the filtering and lowering the blur?

2. What did you use for the environment light?  the clean fresh feeling of the light is from desaturating the hdri/sky ?

3. Are you using photographic settings or the EV value for your camera?

1) I am not disabling it, since it cannot be done for bump for technical reasons, and in other cases sometimes leads to artifacts. Keeping it on pyramidal keeps it on safe side but I do lower it down to 0.01 .

2) Nope :- ) It's pure white color. I actually did it accidentally... I added CoronaSky, but forgot I had ticked 'Use Corona' in render settings, and there was only white color.
    Actually it was really good choice here, because this client is ultra picky about color. They want every color to look exactly like color swatch, but still want moody atmosphere....

3) I am using simple EV. Move it up...or down. I adjust DOF separately, works more flexibly for me.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Geezer on 2017-03-16, 13:37:22
Thanks for the info :)

"They want every color to look exactly like color swatch, but still want moody atmosphere...."

This can be a pain in the ass when you need to use a more colorful light rig like a sunset or dusk setup :)

The simple white color for the environment really surprised me... I guess the context architecture helps controling the direction of the environment light.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-16, 15:21:23

The simple white color for the environment really surprised me... I guess the context architecture helps controling the direction of the environment light.

I am not using it only in environment though solely. That provided almost too directional light because the architecture outside shapes it. I really liked the effect...but it made it too obvious that these spaces would be rather dark in reality. ( no-go in selling )
So I put simple area light outside of windows too...this creates similar, but softer light, more diffused.

In the end, the mix was like 50:50. 50perc. real light coming from outside, 50perc. "fake" light coming from outside. It's still natural light in true sense, but more like americans use to photograph real-estate, embelishing the truth with flash.

This can be a pain in the ass when you need to use a more colorful light rig like a sunset or dusk setup :)

That was last project.. my desperation was reaching olympic heights.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: agentdark45 on 2017-03-16, 17:55:49
2) Nope :- ) It's pure white color. I actually did it accidentally... I added CoronaSky, but forgot I had ticked 'Use Corona' in render settings, and there was only white color.
    Actually it was really good choice here, because this client is ultra picky about color. They want every color to look exactly like color swatch, but still want moody atmosphere....

I know this all too well...
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: mitviz on 2017-03-18, 22:46:25
what are the render times looking like?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-19, 01:57:44
what are the render times looking like?

Absolutely terrible :- ) The discrepancy between both fast scenes and slow scene of ours is 10x ?  These take hours in high-res, on many dual-xeons.

I am not sure what it is.. but most of it comes from GI. Even in scenes where windows are quite big, if there is enough bouncing possible, times are endless.
I am trying portals in many ways but it never seem to do anything, or anything I can notice.

Also..I am not sure if the adaptivity is working correctly in these cases I need to check sample pass. Smooth surfaces (walls and ceiling) almost never clean-up like they are being ignored. I clean them sometimes manually by region-ing (moving around).

Some of it can be attributed to classic scene complexity build-up over the years. Everything is high-res, has tiny bumps, and everything is fully specular (all mats are PBR). Still,...the interiors take forever...like forever :- ).

I do not mind terribly...for stills it's ok. But I would love to do more animations and it's kinda impossible with these space. Maybe I'll just do animations with Unreal only.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: mitviz on 2017-03-19, 02:01:54
hmmm interesting, then am wonder how others here are doing their animations, i see some really nice ones too, have to be on some crazy farms, thanks for sharing this information about your scene
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-19, 02:17:04
There could be some big mistakes I do...but not sure what.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Bormax on 2017-03-24, 21:41:03
Hello

Yesterday you wrote in Stubborn fireflies when using HDRI in Reflections Override topic, that you "might have scene with issue" like the one described there.

I found some simple solution for this problem which working well enough in my case. Maybe you'll find it useful for your projects also.

More information here
https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,13104.15.html
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-24, 22:07:50
Clamping it down to jpeg would be bit overkill, reflection still use up to +/- 6 stops on dynamic range in clouds, but mine even more since it was HDRi of nightlife city. But thanks for idea :- )

In the end... that scene was probably noisy from everything else too :- D I am fascinated by the render times I have.

I wonder if now, when PBR is default shading, some optimalization could eventually be done that acknowledges that materials are always specular. Maybe wrong idea, my train of thought stems from some Ondra's early sayings sampling takes into consideration specular intensity hence why low gloss white paint wasn't cleaned up so fast.

I've recently started adding fine-bump to almost every material, and on flat bright walls, it looks like it confuses the adaptivity which isn't sampling them and I have to manually region it out. Will do some tests with sampling focus, never used that pass.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: nkilar on 2017-03-24, 23:21:05
...
I've recently started adding fine-bump to almost every material, and on flat bright walls, it looks like it confuses the adaptivity which isn't sampling them and I have to manually region it out. Will do some tests with sampling focus, never used that pass.

Funny, that is actually how I think I get 10+ hour renders in V-Ray as well. I haven't tested it so I might be speaking from my arse but adding subtle bump + low reflection intensity to bright white walls (rgb 180) makes everything slooooooooooow.

Hm... Maybe I should do some testing but hey, maybe we are onto something here :)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2017-03-26, 12:22:40
I am still waiting for those complete real-world scenes I was promised, so we can hand-optimize corona for them in 1.7... just sayin... :D https://corona-renderer.com/upload/
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-03-26, 12:43:44
I am still waiting for those complete real-world scenes I was promised, so we can hand-optimize corona for them in 1.7... just sayin... :D https://corona-renderer.com/upload/

I am pretty sure I sent one rather big in less than two weeks : O or two.. well, can reupload.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Ondra on 2017-03-26, 14:39:08
Is it BathroomJuraj_3.zip? ;) If not, then I lost it ;)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-23, 16:04:30
I've uploaded one of 4 projects Veronika and I completed since this year, a smaller but fun one :- ).

Not sure I would make a thread of it here...or how I would format that, but Behance makes that very neatly with all those formations it does.

https://www.behance.net/gallery/52702479/NIVY-Restaurant  I'll post some interesting tidbits from it here :- )

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=64883;image)


Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2017-05-23, 20:14:52
"a small project" what does a big project look like? 4 in 2017 and this is the "smaller one".... Should i quit trying now? LOL gr8 workz as always...
If i can has a small request... A small inside on photography and post-process of those backgrounds and hdri's... So nice.. :)

Ps: is there some architecture from your previous work in the background photo???


Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-23, 20:29:43
"a small project" what does a big project look like? 4 in 2017 and this is he "smaller one".... Should i quit trying now? LOL gr8 workz as always...
If i can has a small request... A small inside on photography and post-process of those backgrounds and hdri's... So nice.. :)

Well small, just 4 images, non-problematic client (this is big one :- D !). Next one I will post is 16 images :- ). But otherwise we are drained..


Sure can post, anything particular ? I think it was very basic, just quick .raw development to boost shadows (create the whole 'blue-hour' feel) and compress/saturate some highlights and some gradients to make the Sky much darker (or more blue), there is at least 3-EV less.
The HDRi were 25k (shot with d800 a diagonal fish-eye 15mm, bit blurry because it was super-windy on top ! No post-production on those of course. Made for nice mood and some decent reflections but were still replaced by back plates since 36MP matches nicely with 8k renders.

Ps: is there some architecture from your previous work in the background photo???

Yes, that is the actual view. These towers are nearby, the so called "New Bratislava downtown", Zaha by Penta Investments and NIVY by HB Reavis Real-Estate. It's crude render placed between the backplate and the interior.

(https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=999.0;attach=64895;image)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2017-05-23, 20:53:39
"a small project" what does a big project look like? 4 in 2017 and this is he "smaller one".... Should i quit trying now? LOL gr8 workz as always...
If i can has a small request... A small inside on photography and post-process of those backgrounds and hdri's... So nice.. :)

Well small, just 4 images, non-problematic client (this is big one :- D !). Next one I will post is 16 images :- ). But otherwise we are drained..


Sure can post, anything particular ? I think it was very basic, just quick .raw development to boost shadows (create the whole 'blue-hour' feel) and compress/saturate some highlights and some gradients to make the Sky much darker (or more blue), there is at least 3-EV less.
The HDRi were 25k (shot with d800 a diagonal fish-eye 15mm, bit blurry because it was super-windy on top ! No post-production on those of course. Made for nice mood and some decent reflections but were still replaced by back plates since 36MP matches nicely with 8k renders.

Ps: is there some architecture from your previous work in the background photo???

Yes, that is the actual view. These towers are nearby, the so called "New Bratislava downtown", Zaha by Penta Investments and NIVY by HB Reavis Real-Estate. It's crude render placed between the backplate and the interior.

Lets say a "hdri-cgi enviro and backplate for dummies" tutorial... A blogpost or a small post here. Its not like there aren't any good tutorials, but a good 'case, scenario' would be nice... I mean, if other people are interrested...

For example. I do some photography and some rendering, but usualy as separate as it gets (except some photogrammetry and material scanning) and your lighting and backplates looks so good that i think it could make a great photography on its own (colours and conposition) and it does play a significant role in the result aswell...

Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-23, 20:57:58
Ok no problem, hope you won't be disappointed, it's very basic I think. I'll make small write-up.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2017-05-23, 21:21:02
Ok no problem, hope you won't be disappointed, it's very basic I think. I'll make small write-up.

Thank you very much... Any insight, simple or not, might be useful... :) (BTW have you thought about some "gumroad" or similar, tips and tricks tutorial?? /visualizations/photography/composition... )
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-23, 21:25:50
Ok no problem, hope you won't be disappointed, it's very basic I think. I'll make small write-up.

Thank you very much... Any insight, simple or not, might be useful... :) (BTW have you thought about some "gumroad" or similar, tips and tricks tutorial?? /visualizations/photography/composition... )

I made a promise not to talk about this because I never deliver :- ) It will have to be once it's ready. I always start writing these but fail to finish. Lack of discipline or over-ambitious start.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: vicmds on 2017-05-23, 21:33:27
Those are great 3D people! If I had to guess, I'd say they were the most time-consuming part of this work?
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: lacilaci on 2017-05-23, 21:43:22
Ok no problem, hope you won't be disappointed, it's very basic I think. I'll make small write-up.

Thank you very much... Any insight, simple or not, might be useful... :) (BTW have you thought about some "gumroad" or similar, tips and tricks tutorial?? /visualizations/photography/composition... )

I made a promise not to talk about this because I never deliver :- ) It will have to be once it's ready. I always start writing these but fail to finish. Lack of discipline or over-ambitious start.
I made a promise to my GF, that I will stop promising to stop smoking cause it always results in a terrible failure... And almost two years ago I quit smoking...

I just needed to try couple of times,

What I ask for is a general "decision-strategy" overview that goes around your and maybe Veronika's head at the time of pre-production and some case-studies, like... we chose this time for shooting the BG, cause "???"... I bet there is something to talk about, may not be relatable but still relevant...idk
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-23, 22:08:24
Ok no problem, hope you won't be disappointed, it's very basic I think. I'll make small write-up.

Thank you very much... Any insight, simple or not, might be useful... :) (BTW have you thought about some "gumroad" or similar, tips and tricks tutorial?? /visualizations/photography/composition... )

I made a promise not to talk about this because I never deliver :- ) It will have to be once it's ready. I always start writing these but fail to finish. Lack of discipline or over-ambitious start.
I made a promise to my GF, that I will stop promising to stop smoking cause it always results in a terrible failure... And almost two years ago I quit smoking...

I just needed to try couple of times,

What I ask for is a general "decision-strategy" overview that goes around your and maybe Veronika's head at the time of pre-production and some case-studies, like... we chose this time for shooting the BG, cause "???"... I bet there is something to talk about, may not be relatable but still relevant...idk

I have exactly something like that written... it's rather comprehensive (and avoids the typical "and now I use floorgen blablah) but yeah...



Those are great 3D people! If I had to guess, I'd say they were the most time-consuming part of this work?

Kind of, yes :- ). They aren't available for Corona, so I spent LOT of time tweaking setup from Rawalanche (who was of excellent help during this project !). But fake skin-shader can only take so far and it still breaks in this kind of light... Let's wait what 1.7 brings !
I also re-made most of the texture for all of them, creating subsurface maps,etc..painting freckles, stuff.

It was actually lot of fun, but it takes time. I did almost like and experiment, 'what if' sort of, I had some nice 2D cutouts but I really wanted to do this for so long.

The chef was clothed and animated in Marvelous by Veronika through mesh-morphs :- ) That was kind of interesting.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: TheDavid on 2017-05-25, 09:19:13
Hi, good work on this one. Especially with people. They really add a lot, especially the chef.
Maybe I missed it but which model bank did you use to pick this entourage ? Or you scanned on your own.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-25, 09:23:09
Hi, good work on this one. Especially with people. They really add a lot, especially the chef.
Maybe I missed it but which model bank did you use to pick this entourage ? Or you scanned on your own.

Heh no of course not. I don't write assets in project describtions but I answered it in comments:

Front people: Human Alloy. Back people:Axyz. The chef: Daz3D haha, it was nicely rigged, dressed in Marvelous designer where it was animated through mesh morphs.

Axyz is kinda bad...not even masks or anything, so I had to paint those in Photoshop and then create multimaterials. Human Alloy comes with perfect masks.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: melviso on 2017-05-25, 18:28:45
The chef: Daz3D haha, it was nicely rigged, dressed in Marvelous designer where it was animated through mesh morphs.
Daz3d? Whaa?!! Will definiely give this app a try. I also think the chef looks quite unique to the scene. Yeah, you need to animate the mesh into final pose to get the clothes to simulate and rest realistically with that pose. Some ppl sculpt the clothes using zbrush but I think marvelous gives better and quicker results. Isn't Daz3d similar to this software called Poser?


Really nice renders btw :-)
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: Juraj_Talcik on 2017-05-26, 13:55:21
Yeah, Daz3D :- ) I honestly still don't understand what is the different between all these barbie-making softwares like Daz, Poser,etc.. there are 4 of them, all the same.. But it did the job because it's so easy to animate and came with nice rig. Of course I slapped photoscanned textures on it from TextureXYZ.

I am off to the Georgia mountains, road trip so I won't answer in next 10 days, but once I am come back I'll write about the photography.
Title: Re: Juraj's WIPS/Theory/Questions //Update with few PDFs from my recent presentation
Post by: cexec on 2017-05-26, 21:46:28
Hi Juraj!
Inspiring work as always!
Could you share with us the secret of creating the fibre optics chandelieur?
I am trying to get the similar effect but have no clue how to start it?
Cheers!