Author Topic: 3D Studio Max 2020  (Read 2519 times)

2019-03-27, 15:42:54

3dboomerang

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Hi,

I was wondering when you guys will be bringing out a 2020-version?

Also, do you know if autodesk did any improvements to play nice with plugins like corona, forest pack pro, etc, ... ? Cause their list of features is rather short on info, do you guys know anything more?

Grts

2019-03-28, 13:48:26
Reply #1

cecofuli

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Suggestion: never use any new Autodesk product and waiting for the first (better second) SP...

2019-03-29, 00:14:04
Reply #2

snakebox

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Suggestion: never use any new Autodesk product and waiting for the first (better second) SP...

nothing is stopping you doing that, but many others like new stuff to be new. unfortunately max is relying heavily on a 3rd party eco system, so to keep new things new, we need everyone to stay up to date.

2019-03-29, 11:45:37
Reply #3

Ondra

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3.2 with support for max 2020 is out
Rendering is magic.
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2019-03-30, 08:37:11
Reply #4

3dboomerang

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tnx Ondra.

Cecofuli: The only reason I'm keeping max atm is because of Corona renderer. I'm fed up the way Adesk is handling their customers. Have you seen the latest list in 2020? I want to check performance, if it's the same or less then 2019, I'm out by the end of the year to another package.

To try out their 2020 performance, I needed Corona, also to see if the compatibility changed. Did it get better? Worse? Same? Need to see.


Grts

2019-03-31, 13:01:27
Reply #5

Mario Rothenbühler

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Dear Corona Team

Is there some speciel procedure to install corona on max 2020?

did not work here correctly with the default installer

any tips?

thank you

mario

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2019-04-01, 14:24:52
Reply #6

JoachimArt

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Some time you need to uninstall, then fresh install for it to detect new software. Try that, it worked for me.

2019-04-01, 15:53:10
Reply #7

cexec

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Select custom installation method and tick the 2020 max version. In my case it only had my default old max 2016 selected, and thus wasn't installing 2020.

2019-04-02, 09:44:10
Reply #8

Mario Rothenbühler

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it works with custom install.... thank you guys

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2019-04-09, 17:25:25
Reply #9

alexyork

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Has anyone else found a solution to why 3ds max 2018/2019/2020 requires you to double-click anything in the Render Setup Dialog the first time you open it? Once it's open it works fine, but every time you close it, re-open and want to quickly disable displacement for example it doesn't respond. AD have known of this bug and apparently found the cause back in Jan 2018, there are lots of posts about it on AD forums, but there's no fix in 2+ years!

Anyone found a fix??? Will buy you a beer!!
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2019-04-09, 17:34:23
Reply #10

pokoy

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Has anyone else found a solution to why 3ds max 2018/2019/2020 requires you to double-click anything in the Render Setup Dialog the first time you open it? Once it's open it works fine, but every time you close it, re-open and want to quickly disable displacement for example it doesn't respond. AD have known of this bug and apparently found the cause back in Jan 2018, there are lots of posts about it on AD forums, but there's no fix in 2+ years!

Anyone found a fix??? Will buy you a beer!!

There is no fix, unfortunately. AD said that 3rd parties need to update their plugins but that seems to have changed, they want to look into it. Question is, how many years will it take? As of now, no news.
They have fixed it for ART and Arnold, but there doesn't seem to be a general fix. Scanline and PFlow are still affected.

2019-04-09, 17:38:19
Reply #11

alexyork

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Has anyone else found a solution to why 3ds max 2018/2019/2020 requires you to double-click anything in the Render Setup Dialog the first time you open it? Once it's open it works fine, but every time you close it, re-open and want to quickly disable displacement for example it doesn't respond. AD have known of this bug and apparently found the cause back in Jan 2018, there are lots of posts about it on AD forums, but there's no fix in 2+ years!

Anyone found a fix??? Will buy you a beer!!

There is no fix, unfortunately. AD said that 3rd parties need to update their plugins but that seems to have changed, they want to look into it. Question is, how many years will it take? As of now, no news.
They have fixed it for ART and Arnold, but there doesn't seem to be a general fix. Scanline and PFlow are still affected.

Seems crazy indeed. It's clearly a UI/redraw issue with 2018/19/20, since the current versions of Corona work fine in max 2016, without this bug. And if they say the issue is present in Scanline then, well.. that's not even 3rd party. So I'm not sure it has anything whatsoever to do with any render plugins...
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2019-04-09, 17:48:19
Reply #12

pokoy

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It's a side effect of the switch to Qt for the UI tech, that's why it first appeared with 2017 with the new UI.
Each UI component needs to be updated (ported over to Qt), they clearly cared most about ART and Arnold, leaving out Scanline.
Even when using ART or Arnold, the General and the Render Elements tabs still have this issue.

Yeah, it's a huge mess, and to leave it like that for 3 years... no words... Making some noise on the Area or letting them know on their blog where they presented their roadmap may help to draw some attention. Then again, rest assured they know about it and you're not the only one to complain.

My guess is... 2 years. Let's see.

2019-04-09, 19:33:25
Reply #13

sebastian___

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As I understand one of the advantages of Qt is being cross-platform, which doesn't apply to 3ds max.
Doesn't anyone know what other practical advantages for the user is the migration to Qt ?  Besides being "modern" (that doesn't say anything for the end user).

Because so far I see only drawbacks. For example when expanding the command panel, it used to be a simple click and drag process - with the previous fixed width per column.
Now, if you don't wanna have wasted space, you have to be careful and drag and wait and drag to a certain distance in order to have two or three rows/columns.

2019-04-09, 20:22:48
Reply #14

pokoy

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As I understand one of the advantages of Qt is being cross-platform, which doesn't apply to 3ds max.
Doesn't anyone know what other practical advantages for the user is the migration to Qt ?  Besides being "modern" (that doesn't say anything for the end user).

Because so far I see only drawbacks. For example when expanding the command panel, it used to be a simple click and drag process - with the previous fixed width per column.
Now, if you don't wanna have wasted space, you have to be careful and drag and wait and drag to a certain distance in order to have two or three rows/columns.

Performance probably, docking may be easier to realize without hacks, and as you say it feels more modern. But there are certainly a few kinks that still need some polishing and a few things that still haven't been ported. I think the goal was a unified UI but it's not accomplished and will take some more time for sure.
Looking back, I have to admit I really like the way 2018 looks and feels compared to pre-2017 versions. But I wish the effort would not stop after 1 or 2 years of rushed work and would actually be finished off. And new UI bugs getting fixed.

2019-04-09, 20:28:34
Reply #15

Njen

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Has anyone else found a solution to why 3ds max 2018/2019/2020 requires you to double-click anything in the Render Setup Dialog the first time you open it? Once it's open it works fine, but every time you close it, re-open and want to quickly disable displacement for example it doesn't respond. AD have known of this bug and apparently found the cause back in Jan 2018, there are lots of posts about it on AD forums, but there's no fix in 2+ years!

Anyone found a fix??? Will buy you a beer!!

Oh my goodness, I thought that was just me...

I have the same issue with my custom suite of tools when I open the floating window for the first time, that I have to click twice. At least I know I'm not going crazy over this alone.
Please support my Kickstarter for my animated film, Cyan Eyed (rendered in Corona)!

2019-04-09, 20:34:17
Reply #16

Ondra

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I quickly checked and our handling of 3dsmax render dialog GUI is about 5000 lines of code + 900 lines of dialogs that would have to be massively modified or possibly rewritten from scratch. As you can imagine, we do not want to do it because we would have to still use the old code for older 3dsmax versions
Rendering is magic.
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2019-04-11, 02:42:03
Reply #17

gandhics

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I quickly checked and our handling of 3dsmax render dialog GUI is about 5000 lines of code + 900 lines of dialogs that would have to be massively modified or possibly rewritten from scratch. As you can imagine, we do not want to do it because we would have to still use the old code for older 3dsmax versions

Well.. this is interesting position.
What if 3dsMax fully switch to Qt and don't support legacy UI anymore like Maya?
Will you stop selling 3dsMax plugin?

2019-04-11, 10:05:02
Reply #18

sprayer

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I quickly checked and our handling of 3dsmax render dialog GUI is about 5000 lines of code + 900 lines of dialogs that would have to be massively modified or possibly rewritten from scratch. As you can imagine, we do not want to do it because we would have to still use the old code for older 3dsmax versions

Well.. this is interesting position.
What if 3dsMax fully switch to Qt and don't support legacy UI anymore like Maya?
Will you stop selling 3dsMax plugin?
How long are using 3ds max? Did you ever heard what they delete something?

2019-04-11, 16:52:08
Reply #19

PROH

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Mental Ray for example....

2019-04-11, 17:55:29
Reply #20

sprayer

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Mental ray was as option to install and later it was bought by NVIDIA and abandon in developing.
And render engine is a bit different, they was always semi separate as native renderer not  much people was using,  they are too fast in developing and priority was in third party renders.
All scripts what was free form CG guru still exist in max, like from blur studio etc 

2019-04-11, 18:25:14
Reply #21

alexyork

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I quickly checked and our handling of 3dsmax render dialog GUI is about 5000 lines of code + 900 lines of dialogs that would have to be massively modified or possibly rewritten from scratch. As you can imagine, we do not want to do it because we would have to still use the old code for older 3dsmax versions

You reckon this is an issue that can only be solved by third party plugin developers then? Not AD? Seems bizarre they would basically break something so fundamental and then leave everyone out in the cold for years.

Also, does anyone NOT have this bug with max 2018/19/20 + Corona? Because I heard noises from some people that it doesn't affect everyone, indicating it's more likely a hardware thing maybe.
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2019-04-11, 20:27:56
Reply #22

gandhics

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3dsMax switched the entire UI to Qt as a part of move to support hidpi.
A lot if users have requested it. I was not. I did not understand why users would even care. But well...

Maya did same thing around 2011.
But, they did hard switch.
They could do it because, they did not have that many 3rd parties.
3dsMax can not do hard switch because of the load of 3rd parties.
If 3dsMax did hard switch, most free 3rd party plugins will be gone.
So, they did a trick to repaint legacy wUI with Qt so most plugin can survive.
Obviously that created many unforeseen issues. 3dsMax dev is still dealing with it.

I can understand free plugins remain legacy UI.
But, commercial plugin should move to Qt at some point.
Especially when there is a problem.
3dsMax dev mentioned they will try to find some global solution.
But, the real solution is 3rd parties moving to Qt.

If you use Arnold and ART, they don't have this issue for their settings tab because they are Qt.
Also if you use some sort of render pass manager, you will likely set values in render pass manager.
Or.. some users are not that sensitive...

2019-04-11, 20:31:34
Reply #23

gandhics

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How long are using 3ds max? Did you ever heard what they delete something?

I have used from 3D Studio DOS v1. :)

2019-04-11, 21:31:27
Reply #24

Njen

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How long are using 3ds max? Did you ever heard what they delete something?

I have used from 3D Studio DOS v1. :)

DOS r3 for me...
Please support my Kickstarter for my animated film, Cyan Eyed (rendered in Corona)!

2019-04-11, 22:18:24
Reply #25

pokoy

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Or.. some users are not that sensitive...

I had an old file with a Pflow setup that I needed to revisit in 2018. Loaded up in 2018 and realized the same double-click issue is bugging PFlow as well. Keep in mind every change to a node takes 2 minutes or more to update the flow.
Here's what happens:
- I click on a checkbox > nothing happens
- I need to click twice > OK, lesson learned
- I then switch the node, think it's not in focus, so I click twice
- I now realize the node already was focused and registered both clicks
- Flow updates for 2 minute, then registers the second click, updates again for 2 minutes
- I now click a third time to get my change to update, 2 more minutes of waiting

The result is I waited 6 minutes instead of 2 to get the result I wanted. IF you have to wait 15 minutes instead of 5 on a more complicated pflow once you accidentally hit a button twice and it quickly gets to a point where your software is not usable.

That's not being sensitive, it's about common sense in how software works everywhere else. If you don't see it... you may have a blind spot.

Back to topic - Max team starts work on a massive UI update, they deliver good work but stop even though it's not finished, causing users to complain. They realize they need to react and think they may solve it. Great, but they wasted 2 years, and it will probably take another 2 to iron out bugs that should've been fixed in the first place when things were hot. I guess a cynic could call that... long-time commitment.

2019-04-11, 22:51:45
Reply #26

gandhics

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I'm not saying that's OK.
That comment was an answer for "Because I heard noises from some people that it doesn't affect everyone".
At work, only 2-3 among 40+ complained about the renderer double click issue.

Also they never stopped UI work.
It just a lot more pressing issue has been popping up.
They had to put back windows frame on SE and TrackView.
They had to revisit Editable Poly redraw.
There has been all sort of small issues because of Qt.
They have to find a way to limit docking.
Everybody said "Just switch to Qt". "Just" is scary word.
They even have to stop feature work to address various Qt issues.

Also, even though 3dsMax dev find some remedy for Render dialog issue.
It doesn't  change the fact that 3rd party dev(Especially commercial) also need to move on.
Your host app changed the entire UI framework.



« Last Edit: 2019-04-11, 22:58:09 by gandhics »

2019-06-18, 17:10:57
Reply #27

alexyork

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Hi everyone.

Now that 2020's been out for a while is anyone experiencing any day-to-day issues that would prevent you from upgrading? We're doing some testing here but want to ask the community... Also spotted that 2020 SP1 is out, so anyone found any issues specific to that?

Corona 4 working ok with it?

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2019-06-18, 17:24:39
Reply #28

romullus

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Did anybody tested tearable viewports in max 2020.1 yet?
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

2019-06-18, 17:39:07
Reply #29

Ondra

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There was some interesting discussion...

- Max did NOT switch entirely to QT. They added QT inside it, and now are using mix of QT and non-QT.
- If we ever switch to QT inside 3ds Max, it will most likely mean we will kill Corona support for the older versions that do not have QT (I am not sure if this is 2017+ or 2018+).
Rendering is magic.
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2019-06-19, 01:07:30
Reply #30

sprayer

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Was it ever Autodesk remove something from 3ds max?

2019-06-19, 05:51:59
Reply #31

lupaz

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Nice thread.
After reading it and checking all the new features since v2016 (https://area.autodesk.com/3dsmax-timeline/)
I still don't find it appealing to move on from 2016.
Anyone else with this feeling?

2019-06-19, 09:46:44
Reply #32

romullus

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Recent 3ds max versions has lots of cool tools and features, but it also has increasingly more and more bugs. I'm sitting with max 2016 and it's pretty sad.

Was it ever Autodesk remove something from 3ds max?

Havoc, mental ray, some other stuff that i can't even remember, but yeah, a major clean up, probably wouldn't hurt.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

2019-06-19, 10:46:31
Reply #33

alexyork

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Recent 3ds max versions has lots of cool tools and features, but it also has increasingly more and more bugs. I'm sitting with max 2016 and it's pretty sad.

Was it ever Autodesk remove something from 3ds max?

Havoc, mental ray, some other stuff that i can't even remember, but yeah, a major clean up, probably wouldn't hurt.

We've all been saying that for, what... 12/13 years? It's so overdue that at this point it's just not going to happen, realistically.
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2019-06-19, 10:53:09
Reply #34

romullus

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But i think Autodesk slowly changing their approach. They looks more open now - public roadmap, implementing some most voted features, adressing some long standing issues. Maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel?
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

2019-06-19, 11:37:46
Reply #35

cexec

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I jumped from 2016 to 2019 and I find it better. It's not like it was a huge step or change, but surely it's as stable as 2016 was, but much smoother and faster in terms of working in viewport. I haven't tried 2020 yet but I'm willing to test it mainly for detachable viewport feature. If was lucky enough to own perpetual 2016 license I wouldn't see a reason to update to 2019/2020 though, it's definitely not worth the money that goes with it on subscription model.
But well, being forced to rent the software I can see it slowly changing and certainly hope for the best in the next updates.

2019-06-19, 12:14:40
Reply #36

pokoy

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I am waiting for one plugin to be ported to 2020 and then planning to switch. 2020 should be better than 2019, the command panel has a fix that makes subobject switching faster... maybe as fast as 2016 was :D

But the story of 3dsmax is a sad one:
2016 - stable, UI fast enough, viewports good enough - the 'gold standard' even after all these years
2017 - viewports much faster, buggy slower UI, and a critical bug with snapping that can crash Max at any time after using snap even once in a session, never fixed in 2017
2018 - stable enough, still a buggy and slower UI, and we came across a super annoying bug with instanced objects, mirroring and modifiers forcing you to work around by avoiding instances (fixed in 2019, it seems)
2019 - OSL, stable enough, this time the UI however got a lot slower than 2018, command panel and material editor UI refresh time is awfully slow
2020 - let's see...

As suggested above, if anyone finds bugs in 2020, please share. I'd hate to discover bugs mid-production as it happened now after we switched 2018.

I am pretty sure Max QA has no production experience whatsoever and runs simple usability tests only. It just can't be that they missed the UI bugs and slowness, modeling crashes and workflow regressions in the last 4 releases.

2019-06-19, 12:18:05
Reply #37

alexyork

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"I am pretty sure Max QA has no production experience whatsoever and runs simple usability tests only. It just can't be that they missed the UI bugs and slowness, modeling crashes and workflow regressions in the last 4 releases."

The Max QA team is basically volunteers like you and me, at least in part. The issue is that they find bugs and issues, report them, and then AD spend the next 3-5 years thinking about how to fix them. Critical stuff takes years to sort out. It's a situation of their own making.
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2019-06-19, 16:58:30
Reply #38

Charlie Nicols

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I must say as much as I dislike the program as much as the next person Max 2020.1 actually shows some promise;

The Floating View ports & this -

"Large integers used as parameters of scene entities are no longer truncated when they pass through dimension conversions. E.g.: 16777217 was truncated to 16777216. MAXX-48775"

2019-06-19, 17:22:17
Reply #39

pokoy

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I must say as much as I dislike the program as much as the next person Max 2020.1 actually shows some promise;

The Floating View ports & this -

"Large integers used as parameters of scene entities are no longer truncated when they pass through dimension conversions. E.g.: 16777217 was truncated to 16777216. MAXX-48775"

I do think they are doing their best under the conditions they are facing - a large company moving way too slow, layoffs and teams reshuffling every now and then, an ancient code base mixed with everything else that was done since then by teams without a vision and concept, highly mixed user base with so many different use cases and demands...

But as Alex stated, it all just takes too long. And the team is too small based on the quantity of new features that we see.

My biggest problem with Max is that there are so many places left unchanged and not improved in the last 20 years. So many things in Max were the same when I started to use it in '98. And they just kept neglecting any evolution, and there was a lot of evolution and development in the last 10 years in the CG world.

Let's see what we get next... but how much will it be?

2019-06-24, 23:05:03
Reply #40

Philip kelly

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Question,
 I have installed for Max 2020, and it won't come up, after install the normal way. ie the installer and it down loads the materials and 1.3 gb of them, , is there something else that need to be done to get it to work?
Thank you.

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2019-06-25, 10:10:48
Reply #41

Philip kelly

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Got it sorted, custom select, and 2020.
1.6gb for a render engine is quite big, I know that includes materials.

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