Author Topic: Vertex connection and merging added!  (Read 21428 times)

2012-11-29, 00:18:52

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
Ok, this algorithm is probably the best thing you can get to render reflections/refractions of caustics (objects enclosed in glass, water caustics, ...) in an unbiased way



excuse me while I do my victory dance
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-11-29, 02:08:55
Reply #1

alieneye

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
    • portfolio

2012-11-29, 03:53:12
Reply #2

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile

2012-11-29, 05:23:26
Reply #3

Javadevil

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Sweet !!! Just brilliant :)

2012-11-29, 07:33:03
Reply #4

lacilaci

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile

2012-11-29, 08:07:50
Reply #5

relox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
wow!! really its going to help alot with scenes that require light plus glass and reflections on metals, i´ve never heard of vcm but it is more accurate than metropolis i see it on the link posted. this will come with the new alpha corona version? this release will come in christmas or before christmas? thanks for the hard work to make this posible in cg.

2012-11-29, 08:30:45
Reply #6

andreupuig

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
    • APtecture
Well done. Can't wait to try the new alpha/beta.
Thank you!

2012-11-29, 12:06:13
Reply #7

petoboso

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
it look very helpfull, i have often problem with noise in reflections like this in vray.

2012-11-29, 16:44:26
Reply #8

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Faster for caustics only means it can replace PT in term of speed right ?

Perhaps an option to turn off caustics with PT and render caustics only on a different pass with VCM ?

2012-11-29, 18:19:21
Reply #9

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
This fix will be released in the next alpha or it is available in dropbox ?

because i did test the latest legacy ( 27 nov ) and i did test VCM mode but it gives me weird result.

2012-11-29, 19:02:36
Reply #10

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
some basic version will be available hopefully soon
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-11-29, 20:20:40
Reply #11

maru

  • Corona Team
  • Active Users
  • ****
  • Posts: 8669
  • Marcin
    • View Profile

2012-11-29, 21:44:48
Reply #12

petoboso

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
I tried reproduce scene and render it in maxwell, here is result, rendertime 50s :
In summary is noise litle bit more reduce in maxwell but in reflections (most critical areas)  is very  similar. if you use unbiase setup of course.
Good job 
I would like to try more complex scene

Edit: now i notice that in maxwell version is coplete missing  some reflection ...weird
« Last Edit: 2012-11-29, 22:07:09 by petoboso »

2012-11-30, 01:07:33
Reply #13

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
Yes, it is missing exactly the problematic part ;)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-11-30, 09:32:48
Reply #14

petoboso

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
i think since version 2 there are some optimalisation, user can change shading quality on each object, default is low. i guess it is therefore.

2012-11-30, 10:21:04
Reply #15

DeadClown

  • Global Moderator
  • Active Users
  • ****
  • Posts: 1438
    • View Profile
    • racoon-artworks
This whole technique stuff is pretty amazing, I didn't understand what bidir really does and why it isn't as fast as pt but solves some problems - (excluding this one here). But I found a page for everyone who's interested to learn the principles:
http://youtu.be/QhJhVkbCgVU hundreds of videos explaining render stuff :)
Now I got it :D
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.

2012-11-30, 18:09:46
Reply #16

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Will Bdir and VCM ever be able to work with HDcache to speed up things ?

2012-11-30, 21:07:33
Reply #17

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
Will Bdir and VCM ever be able to work with HDcache to speed up things ?
no, there is no framework yet to use caching for bidirectional methods
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-11-30, 22:37:02
Reply #18

Javadevil

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
This whole technique stuff is pretty amazing, I didn't understand what bidir really does and why it isn't as fast as pt but solves some problems - (excluding this one here). But I found a page for everyone who's interested to learn the principles:
http://youtu.be/QhJhVkbCgVU hundreds of videos explaining render stuff :)
Now I got it :D

Great find, I will be watching them.

2012-12-02, 00:01:23
Reply #19

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
More hard-to-render scenes:



Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-02, 00:56:55
Reply #20

Javadevil

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile


Freakin'  Awesome  !!!!!!
Only dancing pony's I could find :)


2012-12-02, 01:00:08
Reply #21

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile


Freakin'  Awesome  !!!!!!
Only dancing pony's I could find :)

what about
? ;)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-02, 14:36:59
Reply #22

tomasd

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
VCM is not unbiased ;-)

2012-12-02, 20:34:00
Reply #23

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
VCM is not unbiased ;-)

why do you say that?

anyway, i just want to test it very very very soon, i need it :s

2012-12-02, 20:49:38
Reply #24

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
VCM is not unbiased ;-)

why do you say that?

anyway, i just want to test it very very very soon, i need it :s
he is right, it is not unbiased, but consistent - it means that when rendering the bias eventually goes to zero with time.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-02, 21:04:34
Reply #25

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
VCM is not unbiased ;-)

why do you say that?

anyway, i just want to test it very very very soon, i need it :s
he is right, it is not unbiased, but consistent - it means that when rendering the bias eventually goes to zero with time.

i see , but it's doing a great job here, maybe you should make a 2 hours render of a full test scene with VCM so we can see better.

2012-12-02, 21:57:53
Reply #26

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
I see you don't have those funny white splotches, Do you keep "use merging" off ?

2012-12-02, 22:27:52
Reply #27

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
FYI VCM with "use merging" off equal regular bidir
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-02, 23:25:54
Reply #28

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
FYI VCM with "use merging" off equal regular bidir

I see, you noticed those splotches I am talking about ?

Also edges get over exposed as soon as I used an environmental light, Coronasky or Hdri

Actually both Bdir and VCM are doing great with direct lights but it gets very noisy and slow if I use environment lightning.

2012-12-03, 00:19:49
Reply #29

tomasd

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Chakib: Saying that because it is (I am one of the method's authors). But it doesn't really matter, as you want low noise, not some math buzzwords :-)

2012-12-03, 02:07:38
Reply #30

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
FYI VCM with "use merging" off equal regular bidir

I see, you noticed those splotches I am talking about ?

Also edges get over exposed as soon as I used an environmental light, Coronasky or Hdri

Actually both Bdir and VCM are doing great with direct lights but it gets very noisy and slow if I use environment lightning.

grab the newest build, there were some bugs in older ones (including incorrect environment weighting). If the problem persists, post screenshots. Also you usually need to tweak the search radius parameter to get good results (there is tradeoff between blurring and fireflies)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-03, 04:42:31
Reply #31

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
FYI VCM with "use merging" off equal regular bidir

I see, you noticed those splotches I am talking about ?

Also edges get over exposed as soon as I used an environmental light, Coronasky or Hdri

Actually both Bdir and VCM are doing great with direct lights but it gets very noisy and slow if I use environment lightning.

grab the newest build, there were some bugs in older ones (including incorrect environment weighting). If the problem persists, post screenshots. Also you usually need to tweak the search radius parameter to get good results (there is tradeoff between blurring and fireflies)

does it include the legacy build ?

2012-12-03, 07:29:54
Reply #32

lacilaci

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
*(there is tradeoff between blurring and fireflies) -> But both are resolved and gone in time, right? Anyway, would also like to test in legacy build if you find time...

2012-12-03, 12:02:07
Reply #33

Dom74

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Tested yesterday, it's working very well with glass/refractions/caustics, but antialiasing seems to be less effective than standard progressive path tracing.

2012-12-04, 00:18:55
Reply #34

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
FYI VCM with "use merging" off equal regular bidir

I see, you noticed those splotches I am talking about ?

Also edges get over exposed as soon as I used an environmental light, Coronasky or Hdri

Actually both Bdir and VCM are doing great with direct lights but it gets very noisy and slow if I use environment lightning.

grab the newest build, there were some bugs in older ones (including incorrect environment weighting). If the problem persists, post screenshots. Also you usually need to tweak the search radius parameter to get good results (there is tradeoff between blurring and fireflies)

I use the latest builds

It's easy to replicate, you can use your cornell box scene, turn off direct lights and turn on environment light, you should see those bright edges

It can help you to identify the problem: it happens only with geometry without thickness, if I add a shell modifier to my cornell box, the problem is gone, but there seems to be a relation between the thickness amount and the VCM lookup radius.
 

2012-12-04, 01:39:00
Reply #35

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Some screens about noise, first one is PT (only PT no HDcache) second is VCM.

2012-12-04, 01:49:26
Reply #36

relox

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Hi looks like vcm need more time to render less noise or its more for night lighting, how do i download the alpha version with vcm???? or sam you are a tester for that version that will be released???? thanks i aprecciate any answer.

2012-12-04, 02:03:26
Reply #37

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
Some screens about noise, first one is PT (only PT no HDcache) second is VCM.

too much noise...

There is no glass and metal in your scene, can you add some ?

2012-12-04, 09:18:51
Reply #38

tomasd

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
If the scene contains no caustics (or even no glass/mirror), then VCM is overkill. It will do lot of heavy lifting to solve problems that are simply not there.
For examples of scenes it alone can handle have a look http://www.smallvcm.com/ (the complicated scenes from paper).
I would look at it as method that opens new artistic opportunities, rather than speeding up the current ways of doing stuff. (At least, that was the hope when we came up with the method)

I am afraid there is no silver bullet (yet).
I got some ideas for time-adaptive algorithm, that is pretty much unpublishable, but could make production guys happy.
(Will bother Keymaster with it once his deadlines are gone).

In the meantime, I will have to re-check with him today, but I am pretty sure there is still a bug in his implementation of environment lights. These things are damn hard to catch, especially since the example implementation uses different way of envrionment light (and I am quite sure still has bugs of its own).

2012-12-04, 09:31:34
Reply #39

Chakib

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 787
  • Corona Omnomnomer !
    • View Profile
If the scene contains no caustics (or even no glass/mirror), then VCM is overkill. It will do lot of heavy lifting to solve problems that are simply not there.
For examples of scenes it alone can handle have a look http://www.smallvcm.com/ (the complicated scenes from paper).
I would look at it as method that opens new artistic opportunities, rather than speeding up the current ways of doing stuff. (At least, that was the hope when we came up with the method)

I am afraid there is no silver bullet (yet).
I got some ideas for time-adaptive algorithm, that is pretty much unpublishable, but could make production guys happy.
(Will bother Keymaster with it once his deadlines are gone).

In the meantime, I will have to re-check with him today, but I am pretty sure there is still a bug in his implementation of environment lights. These things are damn hard to catch, especially since the example implementation uses different way of envrionment light (and I am quite sure still has bugs of its own).

Good luck guys your doing great job

2012-12-04, 20:30:06
Reply #40

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Hi looks like vcm need more time to render less noise or its more for night lighting, how do i download the alpha version with vcm???? or sam you are a tester for that version that will be released???? thanks i aprecciate any answer.

For latest builds you need to see that with Keymaster.

2012-12-04, 20:32:11
Reply #41

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Some screens about noise, first one is PT (only PT no HDcache) second is VCM.

too much noise...

There is no glass and metal in your scene, can you add some ?

Lot of reflective materials.

2012-12-06, 18:13:46
Reply #42

pionier

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
    • my portfolio
should I email to Keymaster in order to get that build?
Peter Kolus, Senior 3D artist:
www.peterkolus.com

2012-12-13, 03:36:17
Reply #43

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Watching CPU usage I ve noticed that VCM is not fully multithreaded, do you think it will be able to make a better usage of CPU in the future ?

2012-12-13, 10:50:56
Reply #44

pionier

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
    • my portfolio
should I email to Keymaster in order to get that build?

thanks to answer for my question ; )
Peter Kolus, Senior 3D artist:
www.peterkolus.com

2012-12-13, 12:08:43
Reply #45

Dom74

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
has someone noticed that the anti-aliasing doesn't work well ?

2012-12-31, 09:23:45
Reply #46

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
has someone noticed that the anti-aliasing doesn't work well ?

Yes I did

For some reason the default value for image filter width is set at 1.5 while the documentation recommends to keep it at the same value than internal res. which is by default 2.

So using a width value of 2 makes things a bit better but the image won't be as sharp.

You should make a new topic about this issue.
« Last Edit: 2012-12-31, 09:43:08 by Sam75 »

2012-12-31, 09:27:18
Reply #47

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Keymaster VCM is still crashing max with the latest builds, it won't render at all. Actually the 2 or 3 latest builds won't even load. There is an error plugin at max start.
« Last Edit: 2012-12-31, 09:44:20 by Sam75 »

2012-12-31, 11:59:27
Reply #48

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
what does it say? Have you copied the new dll from dropbox into 3dsmax folder?
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-31, 12:15:02
Reply #49

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Have you copied the new dll from dropbox into 3dsmax folder?

I guess I did since this is what I am talking about :)


2012-12-31, 14:23:47
Reply #50

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
that looks like there is corrupted build on dropbox ;)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-31, 14:50:57
Reply #51

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
that looks like there is corrupted build on dropbox ;)

I tried the latest releases for max 2013.

2012-12-31, 16:54:01
Reply #52

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
I'm uploading newest version which should work
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-31, 17:01:51
Reply #53

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
I'm uploading newest version which should work

Yes loading fine, VCM still crashing max though.

2012-12-31, 20:59:56
Reply #54

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
I went through the code, some parts are currently broken. I'll fix it eventually, but I don't have the time right now.
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2012-12-31, 22:51:58
Reply #55

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
I went through the code, some parts are currently broken. I'll fix it eventually, but I don't have the time right now.

Ok, progressive is the only usable for me right now anyway, was just to let you now.

2013-01-05, 11:39:58
Reply #56

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
What is that rar file included in the latest release folder for max2013?

2013-01-07, 12:08:03
Reply #57

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Keymaster, I see you fixed VCM it's not crashing max anymore.

Can you tell why VCM is not using CPU at 100% ? Is it a multithreading issue ?

2013-01-07, 13:19:55
Reply #58

Ondra

  • Administrator
  • Active Users
  • *****
  • Posts: 8860
  • Turning coffee to features since 2009
    • View Profile
it has many single-threaded stages interleaved in the computation. I haven't optimized it yet, and I don't know if I ever will (if the algorithm proves usable in some real scenes)
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2013-01-07, 13:29:15
Reply #59

Sam75

  • Active Users
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
it has many single-threaded stages interleaved in the computation. I haven't optimized it yet, and I don't know if I ever will (if the algorithm proves usable in some real scenes)

Ok thanks.