Author Topic: With all due respect to the Corona team  (Read 24539 times)

2016-10-27, 18:24:09
Reply #30

Fluss

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Personally Corona is one of the simplest render engines out there. Out of the box, just hit render and you can go with it.

As for some more technical functions inside the engine, these are elements which a PRO 3D artist should have learned in the past and should know already! This is your profession and job and as all the jobs and professions around the globe, if you want to be called a PRO then study and learn all the tricks & tips and physically based workflows. Learn to use the types of maps and their combinations, light setups, color rules, photography, ecc. This is why you would like to call yourself a PRO and ask to your clients a good amount of money for what you're able to produce. Cause if you manage to work with all the above, then you'll make the difference...

If not, just set up your scene as you know and hit render.

Corona is a perfect combination of simple setup or who wants a PRO setup and all the technical things we're talking in this forum I think are not only Corona related but can be applied to all the rendering engines in general. So Corona must not get simpler than it is, cause if it does, I personally won't use it...

You said everything. Corona is already simple. Push the render button and you get a beautifull render... when you know how to build your scene. It is a renderer, not a scene maker. Asking people to write guides is a pure lack of interest to me. Corona needs a good documentation which mention what it does and how he does it. You have to understand what you do to do it better... So the learning phase is essential to me.

Quote
We need a really solid base to understand this
That's why pros are pros

Quote
I sure 90% of users don't understand which color space to use and why, and when
That's why pros are pros

etc... etc...

Quote
All of you speak same Corona language. But we are not.
So learn it !

Quote
Let's remember that your main client is not 3d Guru, but 20 years old boy with 5 month of experience, which works in arch. office and must to give quick result.
Not sure about this..

But we (pros) need versatility. And we needs some controls you (unwarned users) don't understand. So don't use these or improve your knowledge to do so. We can leave professionnally because of that knowledge...

2016-10-27, 18:37:44
Reply #31

GabaCGStudio

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Never learn from internet.

well ... you can use renderman :))
or Arnold :D
or v-ray with GI Flicker ... :]
or MR with very GI Flicker !! :0
or FinalRender :|
or etc ... :\

2016-10-27, 18:50:04
Reply #32

astudio

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Last thing which I have in mind is to make here holly war.

I really never opened Mental. They made it a part of 3d max some years ago. I didn't need it.
sRGB wasn't 3d max standart always. 12 years ago nobody listen about gamma 2.2. Today it's hard to believe, I know. :)

And yes, I don't know what Corona standard and where is Max responsibility.

For programmer may be it's a shame, for user - no. Even if I know what is translucency ;)

This dialog is best example of misunderstanding between user and programmer.

My goal - to have more clients, your goal to have more users I think. I am not a guru 3d artist and I am OK with it. But I have about 40 projects per month, it's not bad for our small country. So some things I do right, I think.

Only thing which I want to say you: If you want more users, don't believe in intuitivite UI, feelings and googling... Believe in documentation. With good help file it's not matter where you put the settings. We'll find them.

Without help file you'll find a lot of confused users, and it's not what I wish you.

PS. As I see you don't believe that I have some experience... It's sad...  I am 3dcenter.ru user from 2002 ...  There are links to render which I made in about 1997 without gamma 2.2, without GI and without windows at all. It was DOS. It was comp 486, with 8 MB of RAM.
http://as90.com/gallery/com_hotel/her_2a.jpg
http://as90.com/com_hotel.html
So don't tell me about Mental standarts. As user I don't need this information... 

2016-10-27, 19:07:58
Reply #33

Ludvik Koutny

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I never said I do not believe your experience. I just said I find it strange that after so many years of experience, you express yourself in a way that makes it seem as if you still had trouble understanding basic rendering concepts.

Also, I think the UI that is so intuitive you rarely need documentation is actually one of the main reason people like to use Corona, so saying "If you want more users, don't believe in intuitivite UI, feelings and googling... Believe in documentation." is quite off IMHO

Yeah... The "You don't need intuitive UI as long as you have deep enough documentation" argument doesn't hold really well... actually... it does not hold at all :)

2016-10-27, 19:09:15
Reply #34

astudio

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Nevermind what we wright here, be sure in my full respect.

2 Other kind users which begin to teach me.

Your best answer would be to try to explain me this issues.


Try to explain me why in color picker with sRGB "on" I have RGB values in sRGB and HSB in RGB.

The reason for this post was announced PBR and compatibility with Megascans. I spent 2 days in trying to use this and can't.

You need to use Glossy in linear space but albedo and specularity map in sRGB.
I made a standart material with this maps and converted it into Corona.
If you use specular map in specular map slot in standart - Corona just dismiss it.
If you use specular map in specular level slot - Corona translate it as reflection.
But if you use it in sRGB mode you get reflectivity 4%.
And so on.

When we talk about PBR - explain please how to use all this that it will be PBR.

Ah, you didn't test it... You don't understand what I am about.... ok, ok... sorry.

2016-10-27, 19:09:29
Reply #35

Dionysios.TS

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Last thing which I have in mind is to make here holly war.

I really never opened Mental. They made it a part of 3d max some years ago. I didn't need it.
sRGB wasn't 3d max standart always. 12 years ago nobody listen about gamma 2.2. Today it's hard to believe, I know. :)

And yes, I don't know what Corona standard and where is Max responsibility.

For programmer may be it's a shame, for user - no. Even if I know what is translucency ;)

This dialog is best example of misunderstanding between user and programmer.

My goal - to have more clients, your goal to have more users I think. I am not a guru 3d artist and I am OK with it. But I have about 40 projects per month, it's not bad for our small country. So some things I do right, I think.

Only thing which I want to say you: If you want more users, don't believe in intuitivite UI, feelings and googling... Believe in documentation. With good help file it's not matter where you put the settings. We'll find them.

Without help file you'll find a lot of confused users, and it's not what I wish you.

PS. As I see you don't believe that I have some experience... It's sad...  I am 3dcenter.ru user from 2002 ...  There are links to render which I made in about 1997 without gamma 2.2, without GI and without windows at all. It was DOS. It was comp 486, with 8 MB of RAM.
http://as90.com/gallery/com_hotel/her_2a.jpg
http://as90.com/com_hotel.html
So don't tell me about Mental standarts. As user I don't need this information...

40 projects per month?!? O.o

I am doing visualization since 1994 and from my experience, more talented you're less projects you are able to get. High quality renders take a very long time to prepare and to tweak so is hard to keep up with a lot of work in the same time. One month has 20 working days, I am impressed you can get 40 projects in the same time... That means quality is not your target, hi budget is not your target, "complicated" render engines are not your target. Now I understand why you want to simplify Corona, settings, ecc...
Responsable d'Imagerie
Renzo Piano Building Workshop / Paris

https://dionysios.myportfolio.com/

2016-10-27, 19:18:29
Reply #36

romullus

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And i thought that only new genertion is so ignorant...

As for the rayswitcher, it actually seems not that many people use environment overrides, so those few who use them for advanced stuff would probably not have too much of a hard time switching to new workflow.

I'm one of those few? people. I use enviroment overrides for about 80-90% of my renderings and i don't use it for advanced stuff. Frankly, i don't understand what this new forkflow will be. Will i have to plug rayswitch map to three thousand materials or what?
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

2016-10-27, 19:20:38
Reply #37

Ludvik Koutny

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Alright, those are actually quite easy to explain:

You need to use Glossy in linear space but albedo and specularity map in sRGB.
This is because 3ds Max's bitmap load dialog handles input color space, and it handles them based on file format. If your map is for example jpg, 3ds Max knows most of the jpg maps are sRGB, so it loads them as such. 3ds Max doesn't have artificial intelligence to know if you are loading diffuse map, specular map or glossiness, It's up to you to specify. Corona can't automatically modify gamma of the incoming map based on which slot it is plugged in, because not every pipeline is the same. Some softwares and studio pipelines save glosiness maps as linear, others as sRGB, there's no such thing as one standard. There are different conventions, some more reasonable, other less, but if Corona did modify color space internally in CoronaMTL, that would cause a lot more problems than benefits, because it would be against 3ds Max standards and expectations of pretty much all existing users.

I made a standart material with this maps and converted it into Corona.
If you use specular map in specular map slot in standart - Corona just dismiss it.
If you use specular map in specular level slot - Corona translate it as reflection.
But if you use it in sRGB mode you get reflectivity 4%.


Standard material is 3ds Max scanline renderer material, it is not Corona material. It has only very basic rudimentary support. And because it renders fake highlights without reflections, a feature which would be pointless and problematic to implement into physically based path tracer such as corona, only diffuse is supported, and specularity is "somewhat" translated to glossy reflection. But if you use standard materials with Corona, you use material of a different renderer. It's same as with V-Ray, which partially supports Mental Ray's Arch&Design material, but no one in their right mind would start shading their V-Ray scene with Mental Ray materials. The rudimentary support of the other renderer material is there only for rare cases so that unsupported material doesn't render completely black.




2016-10-27, 19:23:28
Reply #38

Ludvik Koutny

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I'm one of those few? people. I use enviroment overrides for about 80-90% of my renderings and i don't use it for advanced stuff. Frankly, i don't understand what this new forkflow will be. Will i have to plug rayswitch map to three thousand materials or what?

Hehe, no, definitely not. You would just plug rayswitcher into environment slot, and plug your reflection environment into reflection slot, etc... But it's still up for the discussion... This one in particular is not clear benefit, but more of an exchange - it will mean cleaner UI, but slightly less convenient environment override workflow, so the question here really is if there's enough frequent users of environment overrides for it to be worth having them in form of render settings panel rather than rayswitch map that goes into environment slot :)

2016-10-27, 19:37:05
Reply #39

PROH

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Well I for one uses the environment override slots almost daily, so I would definitely NOT wote for this exchange :)

This is actually one of the "easy" things I like about Corona.

2016-10-27, 19:52:57
Reply #40

astudio

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2 Rawalanche My problem that I know more then one basic rendering concept. Sorry if I didn't explain good the issue.

I take some textures of Megascans after your announcement. My goal was to get physically correct material (they talk that textures are correct)
They have albedo, specularity and glossy for our workflow.
Albedo in sRGB and glossy linear it's ok (I hope their glossy and corona glossy are the same.)
How to manage specularity map? It looks to dark. I used standart map because it has specularity slots, to check where it goes after conversion. I check that specularity map ignored by convertor, but specularity level goes to reflection. I think so by myself but always good to check. It's only reason for standart material using.

When I put it in reflection slot in sRGB I got reflectivity about 4%. Even in linear mode I get only 20% for simplest material (water). Other materials as mud, rocks, sand much less. But they ask to use specularity in sRGB mode. So only 4%.
So question was how to get right reflection and if their specularity is really our reflection. I didn't get the answer at this forum, didn't find believable answer in internet. Some internet guru talk a lot of stupid things. And all this including a hundreds of tests took 2 days from me. It's bad.

I thank that if Corona team announced PBR and Megascans, it's possible to get PB material.
Some times ago Juraj talk about his problem with stucco from Megascans. But by myself I tested it only now.

After this I wrote in future requests about help file. I still sure it may help alot to users which try to work and not to teach....



2 Dionysios.TS . You are absolutely right. Here we may close this dispute. I have 7 people in two offices and 5 freelancers, but all finishes I make by myself. And once more, we are small 7 Mln. people country. May be something wrong in your quality-time-price chain? But it's your business. I am going to learn 3D kitchen. Great soft. Regards.


« Last Edit: 2016-10-27, 20:03:39 by astudio »

2016-10-27, 20:18:14
Reply #41

romullus

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Hehe, no, definitely not. You would just plug rayswitcher into environment slot, and plug your reflection environment into reflection slot, etc... But it's still up for the discussion... This one in particular is not clear benefit, but more of an exchange - it will mean cleaner UI, but slightly less convenient environment override workflow, so the question here really is if there's enough frequent users of environment overrides for it to be worth having them in form of render settings panel rather than rayswitch map that goes into environment slot :)

Ok, that's sounds better. I would like that overrides would stay where they are too, but it won't be the end of the world if it moves to enviroment. The resonings are doubtful, but whatever... as long as we won't be forced to spam material editor with hundreds rayswitch maps :]
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.

2016-10-27, 20:49:48
Reply #42

denisgo22

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2 Rawalanche My problem that I know more then one basic rendering concept. Sorry if I didn't explain good the issue.

I take some textures of Megascans after your announcement. My goal was to get physically correct material (they talk that textures are correct)
They have albedo, specularity and glossy for our workflow.
Albedo in sRGB and glossy linear it's ok (I hope their glossy and corona glossy are the same.)
How to manage specularity map? It looks to dark. I used standart map because it has specularity slots, to check where it goes after conversion. I check that specularity map ignored by convertor, but specularity level goes to reflection. I think so by myself but always good to check. It's only reason for standart material using.

When I put it in reflection slot in sRGB I got reflectivity about 4%. Even in linear mode I get only 20% for simplest material (water). Other materials as mud, rocks, sand much less. But they ask to use specularity in sRGB mode. So only 4%.
So question was how to get right reflection and if their specularity is really our reflection. I didn't get the answer at this forum, didn't find believable answer in internet. Some internet guru talk a lot of stupid things. And all this including a hundreds of tests took 2 days from me. It's bad.

I thank that if Corona team announced PBR and Megascans, it's possible to get PB material.
Some times ago Juraj talk about his problem with stucco from Megascans. But by myself I tested it only now.

After this I wrote in future requests about help file. I still sure it may help alot to users which try to work and not to teach....



2 Dionysios.TS . You are absolutely right. Here we may close this dispute. I have 7 people in two offices and 5 freelancers, but all finishes I make by myself. And once more, we are small 7 Mln. people country. May be something wrong in your quality-time-price chain? But it's your business. I am going to learn 3D kitchen. Great soft. Regards.

It is something I do not understand but for what such insane difficulty---/first to work with a standard material and than to convent this via script to Corona material /Why not start right away with Corona mat,
if still going to render whole scene with Corona render:)
And usually do not happen such a thing,/----------- to take something
from the material or model library, that it was not necessary to change something for current situation of scene and lighting.
Each material and geometry is usually always have to further customize.
For Example:
all the old scenes from Archmodels library generally made in Gamma 1.0-1.8, and this not a fault of Corona render :)

« Last Edit: 2016-10-27, 21:03:54 by denisgo22 »

2016-10-27, 20:57:22
Reply #43

astudio

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The major thing in PBR (theoretically) that you don't need to customize. It's physically correct.

As photocorrection from Den Margulis possible for colorblinds.

2016-10-27, 21:08:39
Reply #44

DeadClown

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Never learn from internet, 0nly documentation.
I would recommend not to try learning maxscript.


Regarding the enviroment override: For me this is a bit too simplified. It may be true that mental ray did it and you can see it as a standard, but I find that a lot more complicated and annoying to use. You can't edit it in place but have to drag and drop the map to a material editor slot, and you can't see which overrides are active right away.
Well, and be prepared for a bunch of people complaining about it for months ;)
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.