Author Topic: With all due respect to the Corona team  (Read 26049 times)

2016-10-27, 21:12:10
Reply #45

denisgo22

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The major thing in PBR (theoretically) that you don't need to customize. It's physically correct.

As photocorrection from Den Margulis possible for colorblinds.

physically correct -----------It is not the first time I hear this wonderful phrase:)
for which situation is "correct"-(day,night, Corona sky or Vray sky or HDR, interior or exterior/
it does not matter if the render
in a dark room with no light:)

2016-10-27, 21:13:46
Reply #46

Dionysios.TS

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2 Rawalanche My problem that I know more then one basic rendering concept. Sorry if I didn't explain good the issue.

I take some textures of Megascans after your announcement. My goal was to get physically correct material (they talk that textures are correct)
They have albedo, specularity and glossy for our workflow.
Albedo in sRGB and glossy linear it's ok (I hope their glossy and corona glossy are the same.)
How to manage specularity map? It looks to dark. I used standart map because it has specularity slots, to check where it goes after conversion. I check that specularity map ignored by convertor, but specularity level goes to reflection. I think so by myself but always good to check. It's only reason for standart material using.

When I put it in reflection slot in sRGB I got reflectivity about 4%. Even in linear mode I get only 20% for simplest material (water). Other materials as mud, rocks, sand much less. But they ask to use specularity in sRGB mode. So only 4%.
So question was how to get right reflection and if their specularity is really our reflection. I didn't get the answer at this forum, didn't find believable answer in internet. Some internet guru talk a lot of stupid things. And all this including a hundreds of tests took 2 days from me. It's bad.

I thank that if Corona team announced PBR and Megascans, it's possible to get PB material.
Some times ago Juraj talk about his problem with stucco from Megascans. But by myself I tested it only now.

After this I wrote in future requests about help file. I still sure it may help alot to users which try to work and not to teach....



2 Dionysios.TS . You are absolutely right. Here we may close this dispute. I have 7 people in two offices and 5 freelancers, but all finishes I make by myself. And once more, we are small 7 Mln. people country. May be something wrong in your quality-time-price chain? But it's your business. I am going to learn 3D kitchen. Great soft. Regards.

Personally I have no intention to hurt anybody but from what I read today by your post you're asking to simplify an already simple engine for your needs. I can't immagine how some things can be more simplified, the risk we could get is to make a small render engine toy instead of an easy use professional one.

I worked for 16 years with my brand and I chose from the very beginning the road of high quality and high price level and this was and is my business and my choice. From the other hand, even if you're 7 + freelancers is obvious that you prefer more quantity than quality and of course this is your business and I am not judging this.

What is strange to me is your request to make this engine much simpler than it is with the high risk to cut off all the PRO options it has.
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2016-10-27, 21:16:34
Reply #47

PROH

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Totally agree with Deadclown regarding environment override - exept one thing: it won't be "month" but YEARS people will complain for such a huge step down in usability. Mental Rays solution was never intuitive nor easy. And not in any way easy to grasp for beginners.

2016-10-27, 21:35:14
Reply #48

astudio

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2 denisgo22

Yes. It's the main problems of all libraries. Their bitmaps just not correct. Diffuse is oversaturated usually, Reflect map is overbright usually. Glossy - is the same as reflect, just brighter. Why? They don't need to correspond at all.
Of course you may to color correct maps every time but why?
Megascans gives us corrected textures (as they say). I just want to check.

2 Dionysios.TS

You missed the point. I don't ask simplicity from engine or less options. I ask for help file, where I may find all answers by myself. If option was announced - add this to help, how to use it. In simple not-programmer not-guru language. That's all.

I gave an example with Megascans using. May be I'm a bad artist, may be I need to learn concept, but, put attention, nobody (and you) answer me. So we have a great engine which we can't use for it's 100% possibilities. Why? Because we don't know how.

Once more. Without help documentation. How to use specularity map from Megascans in reflection slot? We apologize that Megascans gives physically correct textures. Regards.

2016-10-27, 21:46:05
Reply #49

Ludvik Koutny

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Well, it's actually good people mention just the environment override. If it stays the same, then it won't be big of a deal. So does this mean that the rest of the proposal looks good to you?

2016-10-27, 21:54:01
Reply #50

romullus

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@astudio, did you see this? https://corona-renderer.com/forum/index.php/topic,12945.0.html
Everything is written in full details many times over, you just need to search.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
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2016-10-27, 22:04:47
Reply #51

romullus

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So does this mean that the rest of the proposal looks good to you?

Movement displacement controls into displacement mod, i would certainly meet with a round of applause.

As for the rest of UI, well, i not really like a picture of deserted render settings, but i don't think that it would seriously affect my workflow. I guess i would adapt quite painlessly.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
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2016-10-27, 22:09:08
Reply #52

Dionysios.TS

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2 denisgo22

Yes. It's the main problems of all libraries. Their bitmaps just not correct. Diffuse is oversaturated usually, Reflect map is overbright usually. Glossy - is the same as reflect, just brighter. Why? They don't need to correspond at all.
Of course you may to color correct maps every time but why?
Megascans gives us corrected textures (as they say). I just want to check.

2 Dionysios.TS

You missed the point. I don't ask simplicity from engine or less options. I ask for help file, where I may find all answers by myself. If option was announced - add this to help, how to use it. In simple not-programmer not-guru language. That's all.

I gave an example with Megascans using. May be I'm a bad artist, may be I need to learn concept, but, put attention, nobody (and you) answer me. So we have a great engine which we can't use for it's 100% possibilities. Why? Because we don't know how.

Once more. Without help documentation. How to use specularity map from Megascans in reflection slot? We apologize that Megascans gives physically correct textures. Regards.

I got your point of view now but excuse me, from your very first post it seems you were looking for other things here.

I agree for the Megascans questions and worries you have and didn't got an answer from me cause I never used them yet. On this matter you're right. Is a bit confusing all this stuff but remember, Corona is the engine and Megascans are libraries where the engine itself has nothing to do. The marvelous PBR option was created in Corona not for the Megascans compatibility (it wasn't the main reason) but to bring the glossiness values and effect to a more correct result if compared to other engines and the team did a great job on this. I don't know if Corona has the obligation to include officially the workflow of how to use the Megascans library as it is a very specific thing. Romullus post a link a while ago which is all the stuff we collected here for this.

I would like to close the previous subject peacefully, I didn't said you're a bad artist; you're an artist as all of us here and is correct to ask help as all we did and we do continuously. I misunderstood the reason of your fist post. I am sorry.

Dionysios -
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2016-10-27, 22:34:16
Reply #53

astudio

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Hi Romullus.

First of all thank you very much.  I missed it in search.

2nd. It's look like faking PBR, cause I don't understand this IOR map games. May be it works, but for sure it's not physically correct. So PBR still the dream :(
I wonder why they use IOR map and not some LUT for reflection map. As I know IOR is function of material and must be constant for same material. Anyway thank you. I'll learn it in deep.

3rd. I still think that the way, which I got the answer is wrong. It must be a help document. I may miss a search, you may miss the thread.

Once more thank you.

2 Dionysios.TS
It's OK. I don't understand my english by myself.
And I never call me an artist. I respect every artist and every programmer. MBut I'm not. My keyword is efficiency. In Vray workflow I never do tests, cause I know result before render. May be it's not the best result, but my clients like it. Today I left vray and working in corona only.  I really look for PBR. And my goal is the same. I make hundreds test today for not to do them tomorrow at all. It's a secret of 40 projects per month. And suddenly, that I can get more, but can't manage more ;)

2016-10-27, 22:51:39
Reply #54

pokoy

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Do we need another random UI layout? Absolutely!! It's been only a few months since it was changed!
Do we need environment overrides moved to a place a random mind finds more reasonable? By all means, yes! I completely agree they're not hidden enough!
Do we need more thoughts on how to simplify controls? You bet! - we constantly need to hide stuff away so we have to click way more in the long run to find the controls we need!
Do we really need to learn things the hard way and to educate ourselves in order to master what we do for a living? Hell, no! That's what tooltips and tutorials are for - right?!

Right, guys?!?!

2016-10-27, 22:51:53
Reply #55

Dionysios.TS

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Hi Romullus.

First of all thank you very much.  I missed it in search.

2nd. It's look like faking PBR, cause I don't understand this IOR map games. May be it works, but for sure it's not physically correct. So PBR still the dream :(
I wonder why they use IOR map and not some LUT for reflection map. As I know IOR is function of material and must be constant for same material. Anyway thank you. I'll learn it in deep.

3rd. I still think that the way, which I got the answer is wrong. It must be a help document. I may miss a search, you may miss the thread.

Once more thank you.

2 Dionysios.TS
It's OK. I don't understand my english by myself.
And I never call me an artist. I respect every artist and every programmer. MBut I'm not. My keyword is efficiency. In Vray workflow I never do tests, cause I know result before render. May be it's not the best result, but my clients like it. Today I left vray and working in corona only.  I really look for PBR. And my goal is the same. I make hundreds test today for not to do them tomorrow at all. It's a secret of 40 projects per month. And suddenly, that I can get more, but can't manage more ;)

Where are you from???

Your workflow is incredible!!! O.o
If you found a solution for your workflow the way you do, well, I am extremely happy for you! I am at the other side of the river. For me every scene is different and some materials they never have the same effect when used here and there. I always have to tweak and make tests everytime... Did you found the PBR useful? Me a lot, it simplified extremely a lot of things here.
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2016-10-27, 22:52:59
Reply #56

Dionysios.TS

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Do we need another random UI layout? Absolutely!! It's been only a few months since it was changed!
Do we need environment overrides moved to a place a random mind finds more reasonable? By all means, yes! I completely agree they're not hidden enough!
Do we need more thoughts on how to simplify controls? You bet! - we constantly need to hide stuff away so we have to click way more in the long run to find the controls we need!
Do we really need to learn things the hard way and to educate ourselves in order to master what we do for a living? Hell, no! That's what tooltips and tutorials are for - right?! RIGHT?!?!

:D :D :D
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Renzo Piano Building Workshop / Paris

https://dionysios.myportfolio.com/

2016-10-27, 23:10:02
Reply #57

Fluss

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I have to admit that this simplification approach scares me a bit.

2016-10-27, 23:47:16
Reply #58

romullus

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The easier program is to use for casual user, the harder it is to use for advanced user. And vice versa. So far Corona balanced between those two groups of users pretty wel IMHO, let's hope that scales won't tip to one side too much.

@astudio, it seems that you got wrong impression about whole PBR thing. Corona always was Physically Based Renderer and most likely always will. Offline renderers had PBR materials long before their real time rivals. That all PBR terminology has got really messy. Unfortunatelly, Corona only adds to this confusion with that badly named PBR checkbox. Long story short, basically there are two PBR workflows: specular(reflectivity)-glossiness and metallness-roughness. The former is traditionally adopted by off-line renderers, the latter has gained popularity amongst real time renderers. And no, Corona didn't get ability to render metallness-roughness based materials directly with 1.5 release. What's get named PBR in Corona, it means that Corona material was adopted to industry standart specular-glossiness workflow. You still need to convert maps that are meant to be rendered with metallness-roughness in mind.
I'm not Corona Team member. Everything i say, is my personal opinion only.
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2016-10-28, 00:25:36
Reply #59

astudio

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@romullus
I know this.

I never tweak materials for every scene. I try to keep right material in my library, which I may use in all light conditions. I just check, if I may believe to Megascans textures.
The way "nevermind that my tree is dark, I'll give more sun" is not my way.

A lot of libraries give us the wrong textures  (arroway wood or concrete for example) And the main problem usually reflection map. Usually it overbright and overcontrast. So it's good for interiors but bad for exteriors with strong sun.
From AXYZ metropoly collection, which I purchased recently, only one model is good for all conditions. And very hard to change the maps. In renderpeople collection I changed absolutely all textures.

I don't know if it will be a good deal to subscribe to Megascans. Is it possible to use their textures as it?

For test I'll made pure water in Megascans. I'll try to use dubcat's method with IOR map. If I'll get IOR 1.33 - it's ok and I'll subscribe. If not - not. Only thing I need to convert bitmap to IOR number. Do you know the way? May be I'll just create the Rock or Sand material and will compare IOR maps luminosity. Ok, it's need to think about the way.

Something tell me that I'll not get the correct result. But I'll check.

So I really believe in PB materials. And this issue is not about corona. It's about Megascans.