Author Topic: Time to ditch sRGB/Linear as default (?)  (Read 37418 times)

2017-02-21, 18:20:42
Reply #45

Njen

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Back in the day, people were rendering in wrong linear Gamma 1.0 space, and then someone came up with linear workflow, and there were lots of people popping up saying "Why change something that works, why introduce new confusion?", and then LWF slowly became standard.

What in the world are you talking about? It seems you are misinformed about the history of colour reproduction on digital devices.

What's more you seem to be throwing around CG related buzzwords at will without knowing what they do, why they exist or what the relationships they have with one another.

Now, first of all, I doubt most of the new users will ever encounter this. As I already mentioned, this workflow is becoming obsolete.

You keep saying this, and I'm telling you straight out that you are wrong. There have and always will be a goup, usually hobbyists and smaller boutique studios, that will want a final image with a single render, but there always will be the rest of us from hobbyists all the way up to the highest end VFX studios that will want, and need, to render out in passes. Please stop spreading misinformation.
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2017-02-21, 19:12:57
Reply #46

Ludvik Koutny

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Back in the day, people were rendering in wrong linear Gamma 1.0 space, and then someone came up with linear workflow, and there were lots of people popping up saying "Why change something that works, why introduce new confusion?", and then LWF slowly became standard.

What in the world are you talking about? It seems you are misinformed about the history of colour reproduction on digital devices.

What's more you seem to be throwing around CG related buzzwords at will without knowing what they do, why they exist or what the relationships they have with one another.

Now, first of all, I doubt most of the new users will ever encounter this. As I already mentioned, this workflow is becoming obsolete.

You keep saying this, and I'm telling you straight out that you are wrong. There have and always will be a goup, usually hobbyists and smaller boutique studios, that will want a final image with a single render, but there always will be the rest of us from hobbyists all the way up to the highest end VFX studios that will want, and need, to render out in passes. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Well, then set it straight, if you know better. If you are in CG for so many years already, you should quite well remember period of time many years ago when LWF was not yet standardized, and was even off by default in many of the mainstream DCC packages. Actually, in most of them. And people had no idea that they were viewing images in wrong color space, and were doing terrible things in post to fix the problems.

You seem to be constantly reminding me how much more you know, because you were around back in the age when dragons were wreaking havoc across fields of our kingdoms, but you still haven't gotten into specifics.

I am telling you, already, for the third time, that image being tone mapped by default won't result into passes not being usable. Most of the specialized render elements, such as world position, normal, velocity, are excluded from tone mapping by default. If this solution would be implemented, only CESSENTIAL render elements would be affected (actually, it is quite possible only beauty pass will end up being affected), and fixing it will be 1 click away from anyone who needs to do compositing.

You have completely biased view of division of userbase. It's not 50:50 those who composite separate render elements vs those who render everything together. It is more like 5:95, and it's shifting more towards one pass rendering every year. And do not misunderstand it as not using passes like world position, velocity, and such. I am strictly talking only about outdated process of compositing shading elements together (CESSENTIAL elements).

The entire point is taking a virtual, computer light and surface simulator, and making it output images that are a bit close to how human eye perceives real world by default. That's all. This will have more and more priority in the future.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-21, 19:19:59 by Rawalanche »

2017-02-21, 19:18:12
Reply #47

Ludvik Koutny

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Also, since you mentioned working on all sorts of Hollywood blockbusters, I could not help myself but to search for some of your actual work, to be blown away. Only thing I found was the Cyan Eyed project, and coincidentally, only 3D renders from you I saw seem to be suffering heavily from the lack of proper tonemapping, showing the usual pathological burned out highlights and oversaturated color range. A bit ironic :)

2017-02-21, 19:27:41
Reply #48

pokoy

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Quote
The entire point is taking a virtual computer light and surface simulator, and making it output images that are a bit close to how human eye perceives real world by default. That's all. This will have more and more priority in the future.

Then you really should consider adding color profile support to Corona's VFB. Do some tests with VFB+ (free since a few days, thanks Rotem!) and see why it might be a good thing.

I understand why it makes a few users nervous to mess with the way render elements are neglected. Even if the 95/5 ratio works out, I'm pretty sure Corona team will be glad to hear that a larger studio used it on a blockbuster film in the future, and since these happen to have dedicated comp depts they will need elements untouched. If it's really a click away and the new hot feature will not hurt the pros out there (I don't consider myself one) then fire away.

One thing I'd still like to know is what exactly will this new thing be? I mean, technically?

2017-02-21, 19:52:07
Reply #49

Ludvik Koutny

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Well, Ondra said it could be possible to exclude CESSENTIAL render elements from tone mapping, like other elements. That would be ideal case scenario. So only elements you would see tone mapping on would be beauty and lightmix.

And yes, I am sure people in big VFX houses are smart enough to click that one button and then save it as default, as Corona allows for that.

As for technical solution, it's not decided yet. There's a discussion about a few different options at the moment.

2017-02-21, 20:14:05
Reply #50

Njen

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Also, since you mentioned working on all sorts of Hollywood blockbusters, I could not help myself but to search for some of your actual work, to be blown away. Only thing I found was the Cyan Eyed project

So you want to get personal do you? Well then not only do you not have an understanding of CG principals, but you also seem to fail at Googling. I'm not going to hold your hand all of the way, but as a single example, I was the lead lighter on this:
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-Did-They-Film-Quicksilver-Amazing-X-Men-Days-Future-Past-Scene-43157.html


I've also made two animated short films that have played in a combined total of over 100 film festivals, and one of which was accepted into Siggraph's Electronic Theatre, which only show cases the worlds best work.

What ground breaking things have you done?

and coincidentally, only 3D renders from you I saw seem to be suffering heavily from the lack of proper tonemapping, showing the usual pathological burned out highlights and oversaturated color range. A bit ironic :)

You also fail to understand what a work in progress is, how much work actually goes into a project like Cyan Eyed, and how the CG pipeline works (first make the assets, then layout, then animate, etc.). So, to say it simple enough for you to understand: Cyan Eyed hasn't finished the asset build and animation stage yet. Judging the look at this point completely undermines your credibility, since no frame of the film has had a proper first pass of lighting and comp yet. Everything you say just proves to me that you don't know what you are talking about.
Please support my Kickstarter for my animated film, Cyan Eyed (rendered in Corona)!

2017-02-21, 20:35:04
Reply #51

Ludvik Koutny

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Well maybe I don't. I mean really, I am still waiting for actual example of how it should work, instead of saying why it won't.

I mean, if I wanted to present something to wide audience in order to get funding, I would have probably spent at least few minutes in some sort of compositing software to present something that wider audience can perceive as pretty, instead of pointing at limitation of the pipeline process.

I mean that's exactly the point of this thread. It was just WIP, as you said, but if I am not mistaken, those pictures were rendered in Corona, right? Well, Corona has already some capable tone mapping right inside of the VFB. Nothing prevents you from presenting images with some basic nice post processing right out of VFB, even in the work in progress stage.

That is exactly it, a new approach that will allow you to see something that is a lot closer to the end result without waiting ages before it actually reaches end of the pipeline through numerous people. Or, when working as a freelancer or in a smaller team, allowing you to see something, that is almost nearly final output, without waiting until you get to the compositing package.

If It sounded too personal, then I genuinely apologize. I was not proving you are not skilled, you most definitely are. I was just trying to point out that you yourself may have actually encountered a situation this solution would help with.

2017-02-21, 20:36:51
Reply #52

agentdark45

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Njen please leave this thread if all you are you going to do is cause conflict. Rawalanche has stated numerous times that what he is proposing will not change how people composite passes together.

Everyone freaking out because they can't figure out how to hit a simple checkbox. Honestly!
Vray who?

2017-02-21, 20:44:48
Reply #53

Ondra

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calm down, everyone...
Rendering is magic.
Private scene uploader | How to get minidumps for crashed/frozen 3ds Max | Sorry for short replies, brief responses = more time to develop Corona ;)

2017-02-21, 22:11:45
Reply #54

Dionysios.TS

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2017-02-22, 02:15:50
Reply #55

lolec

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Ondra said in another thread that Corona DOES NOT SUFFER FROM THIS. I'm glad :) but I tried the desaturation example shown in the video in Corona 1.5 hotfix 1 and it seems to suffer from the same "problem" described in the video.  I won't pretend to understand any of the underlying technologies or processes, but shouldn't the colors desaturate as exposure/light intensity increases?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Can you clarify?

Passes might be essential in composition and VFX situations, however, I think the ultimate goal of a render engine is to be as easy to use as a camera. It comes down to market size. I think there's a lot more people who would use a virtual camera than people working in the VFX industry.

Architects, Designers, Engineers, Markete, Hobbyists etc..

I know that when you are inside of an industry, it seems like the whole world should conform to that reality. But the world is quite diverse and most people don't have time or interest in specializing in composing, or understanding the workflow.

Should a render behave ONLY as a camera? of course not. Once you done all that work, you might as well offer the possibility for people to draw outside the box. But should it be the standard? I think it should. 

2017-02-22, 15:20:38
Reply #56

aldola

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I have some dumb question, the linear file that we produce on the corona vfb, is the same that the raw file that colorist have to work? or the raw  have some camera responses already

i attach an example

2017-02-22, 17:24:49
Reply #57

Ludvik Koutny

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Ondra said in another thread that Corona DOES NOT SUFFER FROM THIS. I'm glad :) but I tried the desaturation example shown in the video in Corona 1.5 hotfix 1 and it seems to suffer from the same "problem" described in the video.  I won't pretend to understand any of the underlying technologies or processes, but shouldn't the colors desaturate as exposure/light intensity increases?


Ondra said it because Corona already has tone mapping. Blender folks see it as something so revolutionary, because they did not have any tone mapping at all up until now. No highlight compression, and no filmic mapping. In corona, you have highlight compression as well as filmic highlights. You can use those to compress highlight range and desaturate it at the same time.

2017-02-22, 17:46:59
Reply #58

maru

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Guys (especially Rawa), please restrain from personal fights, or switch to private messaging. This thread is to discuss specific topic, there is no point in adding the extra spam.

2017-02-22, 18:20:32
Reply #59

Ludvik Koutny

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Guys (especially Rawa), please restrain from personal fights, or switch to private messaging. This thread is to discuss specific topic, there is no point in adding the extra spam.

How is my recent post a personal fight?