Author Topic: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group  (Read 33445 times)

2017-08-26, 18:56:36
Reply #75

A515

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I already see this brothel in tabs and those DMC shit back to roots like 1.09.3 vrey anyone remembers? Hahaha, the circle closes.

2017-08-26, 20:09:26
Reply #76

pokoy

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While it's understandable that some of us are confused and others are shocked, please guys keep it civil, give the team a few days to come back to normal mode and let them explain their view of the situation.

Keep in mind that software development, R&D, maintenance and support is extremely costy, especially if you want to see Corona grow and see it ported to other 3d apps. Their main product is rooted in the 3dsmax community and if they want to support other apps not only do they need new developers with very specific skills but also to grow the team to maintain the code and another few people for user support. This has proved to be an extreme challenge for other companies (look at Maxwell) and while it sounds good to us users it only works with a lot of additional resources quite and high up-front costs. Without that it can break a company's neck - easy to see how that would backfire on the current 3dsmax userbase. This is something that Chaosgroup can help out with and it's a very reasonable move to look for partners who can offer the skillset they need.

If anything, this move means that they're dedicated to Corona's long-term growth, quite the contrary to the 'they're greedy' kind of accusations that some are throwing around here. Both companies have proven to be very user-oriented and artist-driven so let's assume they know what they do and why they did it.

2017-08-26, 20:10:38
Reply #77

tom.focus

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This is terrible news. Plain and simple - The shareholders sold out. Enjoy your money.

2017-08-26, 20:40:27
Reply #78

lolec

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The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?

This is the big question! I would love to know what is the adjusted vision for both products, as there is no way they will stay in the same track as before (competing with one another).

What makes sense for me is that Vray would focus more and more in the VFX and production industry, people who spend all of their time rendering and would like a lot more control and flexibility, archviz users spend very little time rendering compared to VFX and they holdback the engine, Vray has to tailor to 2 audiences with very different expertise levels.  This market is also used to paying way more for software, so expect vray to become more expensive as it abandons "casual" users.

Corona on the other hand does not need to adapt to attract a single VFX user. They will probably stay where they are at and probably become simpler.  I imagine corona becoming a "virtual DSLR" focused 100% on capturing reality instead of faking it in any way.

Since corona is not even feature complete for archviz (hair, voumetrics, caustics, skin...)  the plans in the short and mid term will probably stay the same. 

But once corona feels complete for 80% of current users, it will probably start diverging more and more from vray.

For most corona users like mayself that are escaping the complexities of other engines, this is great news. For the small number of users that want corona to become something that it's not already, you are probably out of luck.


The one super exciting thing about this is compatibility between the two, get the best of both worlds without compromise. Except paying for 2 licenses of course ...



2017-08-26, 21:01:37
Reply #79

speltospel

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chaos

I remember with horror these dances on the tip of the knife 0.005 trshold.
These settings for AA.

Corona changed the rendering like Zbrash changed the creation of the characters.
you do not think about what you do not need (topology, quad-poly, 5-stars points - you just create)
In the chaos groups this is not understood for more than 10 years. and no longer when they do not understand.
« Last Edit: 2017-08-26, 21:07:47 by speltospel »

2017-08-26, 21:13:22
Reply #80

blank...

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I don't understand why so many of you are so angry, after all, we do live in the real word. Corona probably didn't generate enough money to continue comfortable development, so Ondra took the opportunity, nothing to blame him for there.
And on the other hand Chaos group took the opportunity to kill it's competitor that started to take a noticeable chunk of (mostly) archviz market.

As for Coronas future, let's not be naive, it will probably meet Mental rays fate once it got bought by Nvidia. It will either become some overpriced pet project of Chaos group, or over time completely abandoned.

C'est la vie, end of an Corona era, others will come. Heck, two years from now 32 gigs graphics cards will become the norm and we'll wonder how we ever got anything done on those old CPU renderers.
« Last Edit: 2017-08-26, 21:20:43 by blank... »

2017-08-26, 21:18:45
Reply #81

Ludvik Koutny

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The implication was made on the blog that users of corona and vray aren't the same, so the render engines are flexible(vray) and simple to use(corona)

Does this mean, that in the future a request of a feature (existing in vray) might come from corona users, and corona devs would simply say: well, there's vray for that..? Since, you might not want to compete...?

This is the big question! I would love to know what is the adjusted vision for both products, as there is no way they will stay in the same track as before (competing with one another).

What makes sense for me is that Vray would focus more and more in the VFX and production industry, people who spend all of their time rendering and would like a lot more control and flexibility, archviz users spend very little time rendering compared to VFX and they holdback the engine, Vray has to tailor to 2 audiences with very different expertise levels.  This market is also used to paying way more for software, so expect vray to become more expensive as it abandons "casual" users.

Corona on the other hand does not need to adapt to attract a single VFX user. They will probably stay where they are at and probably become simpler.  I imagine corona becoming a "virtual DSLR" focused 100% on capturing reality instead of faking it in any way.

Since corona is not even feature complete for archviz (hair, voumetrics, caustics, skin...)  the plans in the short and mid term will probably stay the same. 

But once corona feels complete for 80% of current users, it will probably start diverging more and more from vray.

For most corona users like mayself that are escaping the complexities of other engines, this is great news. For the small number of users that want corona to become something that it's not already, you are probably out of luck.


The one super exciting thing about this is compatibility between the two, get the best of both worlds without compromise. Except paying for 2 licenses of course ...

Actually, the days when VFX rendering meant faking a lot of things are now mostly gone. It took the somewhat cumbersome VFX industry a while to adapt new, simpler, physically based approaches, but they have been enjoying it for a while. So VFX renderer does not mean complicated renderer. VFX renderer, by today's standards simply means feature complete renderer, at least when it comes to major features.

Corona is just hair, skin and volumetrics effects away from becoming a VFX renderer, and hair is already present in dailies, skin is already implemented and being polished, and last time I checked, volumetrics were still on the roadmap. I am also pretty certain that all of these 3 last major features will be implemented in Corona fashion: fast, simple and convenient to use while flexible just enough to cover vast majority of requirements.

They also mentioned on several repeated occasions that there are no plans to limit development direction of Corona in any way, so even if some more requirements for VFX work arise in the future, there's nothing standing in the way of them being implemented into Corona.

2017-08-26, 21:23:09
Reply #82

ylucic

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Saw the recording of the q&a.
Nice to hear that if either of the teams makes a breakthrough in something it will have to share it with the other. But what about the implementation of those new things? Each team will independently decide put it in it's engine?
Industrial Designer
SCL

2017-08-26, 21:48:30
Reply #83

lolec

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Actually, the days when VFX rendering meant faking a lot of things are now mostly gone. It took the somewhat cumbersome VFX industry a while to adapt new, simpler, physically based approaches, but they have been enjoying it for a while. So VFX renderer does not mean complicated renderer. VFX renderer, by today's standards simply means feature complete renderer, at least when it comes to major features.

Corona is just hair, skin and volumetrics effects away from becoming a VFX renderer, and hair is already present in dailies, skin is already implemented and being polished, and last time I checked, volumetrics were still on the roadmap. I am also pretty certain that all of these 3 last major features will be implemented in Corona fashion: fast, simple and convenient to use while flexible just enough to cover vast majority of requirements.

They also mentioned on several repeated occasions that there are no plans to limit development direction of Corona in any way, so even if some more requirements for VFX work arise in the future, there's nothing standing in the way of them being implemented into Corona.

I was unaware of this, sounds good. It's hard to imagine one company allowing two overlapping products tailored to the same markets at different price points, but it's likely due to my lack of imagination ... and me spending 5 minutes thinking about it instead of 1 year like Ondra.   

One thing I do know is that the corona team has made many many smart decisions in the past, they probably structured this deal in the smartest way to make it work. Facebook is a great example of a company that figured out a great way to acquire teams in a smart way, with WhatsApp, instagram and oculus... The foundry is another good example. I bet the same minds that created the best render engine in the world, came up with a good structure.

2017-08-26, 22:44:41
Reply #84

Lwmotion

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I own both packages and my first knee jerk reaction was noooo but not totally surprised. Octane has sent a ripple through out the
rendering universe. Rendering apps need to step up their game or be left behind. Vray and Corona are great tools but both have
short comings. Vray has a solid rep and features for animation/fx needs but Vray RT after all these years still doesn't 100% match
the production renderer. Corona's interactive renderer shines in this regard and I love it's integrated Image Editor but Corona is missing
some core tools for animation/vfx and has been too focused on arch-vis stills. I ran into a painful wall trying to use it for animation.
That nonsense "Lock Sampling Pattern" option that's enabled by default and is needed for denoising is completely ludicrous! Got a
rendered sequence back from Rebus Farm to find the animation moving through a static grain pattern. That was a $100 worth of rendering
flushed down the toilet... WTF! Both packages could benefit greatly from each others knowledge and expertise. There maybe a future rise
in price but I'm happy to spend a little more on quality.

2017-08-26, 22:59:39
Reply #85

Siahpoosh

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another great CG software killed for money (like XSI,Naiad) , I never thought to say this , F****K you CHAOS GROUP and welcome to AUTODESK family

2017-08-26, 23:40:54
Reply #86

vlado

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It's somewhat disapponting to read all these responses. Guys like Ondra and the rest of the Corona team are extremely rare, and they chose to work (very hard) for you. They can do many amazing things for you in the future as well. Still somehow you turned from loyal supporters to pure hatred in a single day. Hate me all you like, however those guys have been nothing but good to you.

I've worked on V-Ray really hard for 15 years, long days and many nights including weekends, with very few vacations, and no sick leaves to get where I am today (no matter how much you despise my work). It's a tough road to walk. Is it so bad that those guys want a short cut? I think you will like the results. Corona will continue to serve you well.

Best regards,
Vlado

2017-08-26, 23:57:39
Reply #87

Eddoron

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Pricing of Corona will go way up. Updates will slow way down. Eventually they'll merge the two renderers. I mean in the end, why would they need to develop two? Let's be honest here.

This has probably been in the works for a while now. Probably why updates to the C4D version have slowed way down. Such a shame. I had high hopes for this renderer :(

Exactly what I was thinking. They said both teams would work on their own projects but for how long until they're swallowed? What will happen with the FairSaaS?
And don't forget the terrible company that makes the vray conversion for c4d that takes at least months for updates and then puts out a broken version with features not working properly.

2017-08-27, 00:12:08
Reply #88

matsu

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Vlado, I understand that you're disappointed. I'm sure you were hoping for a community thrilled and happy about the merger.

I can only speak from my own point of view, but for me Corona was the very thing the archviz scene needed. I was using Vray from the beta days, and I was loving it, but as time went on, more and more issues started to show up, and tbh, it felt as you shifted all your focus from archiviz, to vfx. Also, the way the software grew... it just became increasingly cumbersome to work with.
Then Corona showed up, with a very fresh approach, and they truly seemed to understand the artist's point of view. I switched over one afternoon and never looked back. The software just delivered in every aspect and made my proffessional life about ten times more delightful. (Not to forget: At a very reasonable price!)
And what's most important: They brought competition. Which is extremely needed in these cases. Look at ADSK... the latest 3dsmax release is a joke! Complete stagnation. All they do is milk us of money through subscriptions.

So now, when I hear you're taking over the show.. I fear Corona's days are numbered, and that makes me sad and angry. Why? Because we've seen mergers like these before. Initially, the talk is all sunshine, and dev teams will go on, and that no product will be sacrificed etc...then fastforward 2 years, and the story is very different. Especially in this case, where the products are so very similar, and the user group is practically the same, I can't see why a company would want to use resources for some kind of parallell development. Then we all know Chaos will not scrap Vray...

If I am to be optimistic, we'll see a fusion of the two renderers (Corona's simplicity and foolproofness, with.. whatever benefits vray might add) and that you find in your heart (and wallet) to sell it at a decent price.
If I am to be pessimistic, you'll pick whatever tech Corona has that you miss for Vray, then discontinue Corona completely. Then hike the price of Vray further, since you have all this new and cool features.

It's up to you (or your investors?) to deciede. In the meantime, I'll just hope for another challenger to appear. Since this business badly needs good competition.

2017-08-27, 00:20:00
Reply #89

vlado

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Let's go with the optimistic version then.

Best regards,
Vlado