Author Topic: Render Legion and Corona Join Forces with Chaos Group  (Read 35522 times)

2017-08-28, 12:09:21
Reply #180

Alexp

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2017-08-28, 12:53:34
Reply #181

jmottle

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Personnally, I'm worried of one thing : innovation.



Or we could consider that each respective company no longer needs to waste development cycles reacting to each other, and instead can focus on features and technology that moves the entire industry forward.  There are some pretty brilliant people developing both apps.  As this thread seems to be filled with analogies, here is another: Two heads are better than one. :)

For whatever it's worth, in speaking to both Vlado and Adam, both on and off the record, there is nothing I heard that suggests that their path forward is anything but well intended and exactly as they are telling everyone. But people need to read and listen to what they are saying and stop reacting only to a headline and making assumptions/speculations.  Both companies have stellar reputations in the industry, and are some of the most straightforward and transparent people I've known in this industry. Why everyone assumes they have all of a sudden moved to the dark side eludes me.

I think we're in for some exciting times ahead.

Jeff Mottle
CGarchitect

2017-08-28, 12:57:48
Reply #182

LuckyFox

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2017-08-28, 14:31:05
Reply #183

melviso

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I was discussing this with a friend yesterday and quite frankly. This is needed cause I think offline renderers are going to have to contend with game engines in the near future. say the next 2 or 3 years. Realtime graphics is almost there in terms of photorealism. It's just a matter of time.
I have found myself experimenting more and more with ue4. By the time we have the next generation game engines, offline renderers might be facing very stiff competition. Game engines are already finding use in Vfx and movies currently. I remember reading somewhere of Star Wars movie using ue4 in their production process. VR is already gathering momentum in the archviz field. So maybe teaming together might be something the devs are considering as game engines become the norm for rendering in movies/archviz.
« Last Edit: 2017-08-28, 14:40:30 by melviso »

2017-08-28, 14:41:19
Reply #184

burnin

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Seems healthy news for nowadays. It's how small companies can survive the over bloated dinosaurs eating, biting & shitting all over.

If you guys & girls are really afraid, be scared because you're dependent on AD's 3DS Max :p ... your generation will never more do a switch to any other app like Houdini, Blender, Modo, C4D, LW... and force the creation, or even better, making of seamless integration on other platforms for future generations of indies, artists, studios & hobbyists. Because this 'visual works' don't stop at mere CG. CG is just a tool, a hand that holds the brush.

Thus I especially hope for Houdini & Blender to get VRay & Corona in a package... Blender is close, yet still far...

Although, what could really change the map & be one of most amazing things is, if also SideFX (Houdini) & then some more companies like Pixar, Pilgway, Pixologic, Blackmagic... start joining, slowly evolving into 'CG creative union' :D... creating a worthy conglomerate to balance out the industry monopoly from AD and alike.


Anyways, the idea is great, just keep moving forward!
« Last Edit: 2017-08-28, 14:45:00 by burnin »

2017-08-28, 15:38:04
Reply #185

A515

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Vlado, it’s nice that you decided to write despite the cold welcoming from almost everyone here but that should be understood concerning how Vray looks nowadays, what it offers and at what kind of point it is when it comes to archviz.

If that takeover was concerning e.g. Unreal Engine it wouldn’t be such an important and big event as it is in case of Corona. Undoubtedly it is a special moment in I would say last 10 years when the monopolist has been bitten in the leg and is now limping. Look at the fact how many people come away from Vray looking for simplicity and possibility of choice that goes along with the really good and low price which of course is not the main factor of Corona’s success but one of the elements of it’s thriving.


I know Vray since version 1.09.03 and before Vray I have tried with Splutterfish Brazil which at that time looked more advanced and I was just beginning… so I’ve decided that I want to learn fresh engine while it’s developed and still in an early phase because it’s easier to be up to date that way than going through hundreds of forum pages and chasing the tail. What’s more, the archviz business was just starting out, tutorials were poor and low quality, there were no youtube channels and whatsoever. Generally speaking, there was a great hunger for knowledge, no money, hardware capabilities simply funny (comparing to what we have now) and nothing there to learn from so there couldn’t have been better conditions. The teams were just forming to be able to run for dreams together instead of chasing others…


People on the market has created archviz business themselves but it’s the Vray that has created foundations and made it even possible … until some time. Like it or not but these are the facts and none of us should forget about that. I’m lucky because I remember the very beginnings and I could quietly participate in that process but there are people who know Vray from version 1.5 Rc3 or higher and so on … For them, it was like trying to understand university mathematics without the primary stuff … you can do it but it demands lots of stubbornness and the current generation is rather lazy and they want the results … immediately.


It’s archviz people that have created the very first small film studios. And as the time went by archviz in Vray’s development started to be substituted by vfx which simply means big money.


I think you’ve forgotten thanks to whom you’ve expanded. Progress is needed and it demands lot’s of money but one should always remember where the beginnings were and thank’s to whom (in my opinion) you came into being.


Back in the days, I couldn’t have imagined working on different software than Vray. To me, it’s still the home of CG business besides the 3Ds 3.0 under DOS system of course. Despite bugs appearing here and there, mess, not even mentioning about complexity and the price I couldn’t have imagined working with something else.


I was always standing for Vray and in its defence and telling people, that if they want to do something in this business and learn things they should learn Vray. I don’t know if there can be a better ad than a fanaticism :) …


I have perceived Corona as one of the new fashions in CG and simply the „next wise guy” that is trying to tilt at windmills. As you know yourself very well Vlado there were lots of such people then and attempts and it seemed like everyone is trying to write his own new engine (refer to evermotion). Today it’s just a funny thing to talk about with proper people by the glass of beer … ;)


Back to Vray … it didn’t come to my mind even once to look around for a new soft despite the price was constantly going up, vfx was developed more and more and archviz features were marginalized with some minor fancy adjustments which at the end didn’t help with work at all … drama. I’m curious how much will cost Vray 4.0 together with Corona’s hybrid … or maybe we won’t be able to have Corona without the Vray’s license … amazing. The question is what will you do if people will be so fed up that they don’t want to even hear about you anymore … will you force them somehow to use Vray or give the choice?


Let’s move on …


Recently we’ve seen kind of a revelation — Grant Warwick. There was finally a fresh breeze in the air and he changed the approach to Vray by 180 degrees. Finally, someone has explained in a simple manner, neatly and clearly how the sampler works and where have you been at that time? I bought the course despite I could say I know Vray but I bought it because Vray used to surprise me always and rarely it was a positive experience.


The only one worth the attention ever created was this GW course in my opinion. The others I’ve seen were embarrassing and I always wondered how come that people pay money for them … but this was the magic of Vray itself I guess and it was usually supported by you (logos, official partnerships) or at least it was made to look that way despite the knowledge there was close to zero and very superficial. Drama and my great compassion for those who had to go through it all, paying for the course just to realize they're in the ass and the rabbit’s den is really huge … But the magic of Vray still lasted and I was always defending it like a faithful dog when someone was trying to discredit it. The master was only one and it was Vray … sadly.


And all of a sudden Corona appeared. I started from v6 just to prove to myself and to others that it’s just another temporary fashion and that the engine is not a miraculous tool for generating images. As the time went by a couple of interesting works showing engine capabilities appeared (not talking about simply nice images). The engine’s job is to. Render and the image is created by the artist. By the way lack of understanding, it is probably the reason why young guys are switching from one render engine to another so often hoping that the software will do the job for them.


I thought to myself that Corona’s forum is relatively young and there are not so many threads and pages to go through (maybe 500 important there were at that time) so I started reading first — it was just like with Vray back in the days. The energy that you could feel in what the people were writing was simply amazing. I could feel the hope that it is possible to work faster and in a much more simple way. Plus the engagement of the creators and their great interest in feedback given to them by the community … (I don’t write much, I’m rather reading and formerly I used to read your posts passionately, Vlado).


After getting through lots of posts and threads plus observing other people (Juraj, Maru, Ondra, Dubcat thanks for all the knowledge) I came to the conclusion that I will install Corona and just try it. It was just like a one way ticket. You start using it and just cannot stop. First biggest suprise for me was the amount of tabs in rendering section … I called my friend to ask where should I look for the settings and he simply told me that there are no more … I almost had tears in my eyes :) The impossible became possible. The wall that I have built around myself and Vray and was defending so many years was destroyed in seconds. Of course the knowledge remained and I’m thankful for that.

Updates and new Corona versions popped up suprisingly often. The community was great and created by people who are able and want to share their knowledge. The voice of users was heard and features were almost immidiately implemented in the next beta versions of the engine. All of this showed and proved that it can be fresh in this business, work can be simpler and in many ways much better than Vray. So don’t be suprised that today so many people is pissed off that Vray is taking over Corona because they associate your company with complicated, hard to use and expensive engine that from some time haven’t done ANYTHING important for archviz business. Your policy is also unpredictible. Have you seen any valuable tuts for Vray in last 3-4 months? No and it’s because people left the engine in favour of Corona. There is no point in using complicated soft and wasting time while you can do things immidiately in Corona (just my opinion).

Now the latest Vray 3.6 version … almost copy and paste features from Corona (despite I perceive a lightmixer as a redundant tool in a current form and RAM expensive in Corona). The power increase in rendering is of course noticable in Vray but it’s questionalble that a new person will be able to use that power at all. At leats I don’t think so …

This is why it’s so hard to agree with that fusion to so many including me. Anger and anger on more time and hardly anyone is willing to be optimistic. The proces will probably go up until 2018 and everyone is probably scared and feel abandoned by  the Corona team. People feel disappointed because they have put a lot of time and effort in it … someone has to do extensive testing and so on right?

Someone has mentioned that there will be more programmers in a Corona team? Twelve? So how come you say the prices of Corona won’t go up? You don’t need to be economist to see it doesn’t add up. But let’s leave it for now as it might be 50 euro (or 49,99 whatever).

I’m more concerned about the fact that you will start implementing your way of thinking in Corona development - overcoplicated way of thinking that is deaf on the regular and sometimes beginning users. And in worst case it will end just like this. 


What is the pesimistic version? In 2 years Corona will be gone (or will not exist and be developed the way it is developed today). I don’t mention the price policy. It might be hot topic but most of the people here are serious professionals that are aware of the fact that good product must cost.

The only positive is that maybe you will learn something from Corona and won’t let any more the other competitors to grow so big. Nokia company wasn’t that lucky like you are today … :) You are taking over Corona. Brand that has great public, fantastic success story and is still progressing.

I beg you please don’t fuck this up…

By the way if so big studios like Platige Image get rid of Vray in favour of Arnold and others do follow like Juice you should start thinking. It’s not just the case of the operating systems.

Thanks Vlado once more that despite so many tough comments (including mines) you’re here and read and reply. You’re active like back when the Vray was 1.09.3 42 45 and so on.

Regards,

Ex Vray’s faithful dog fawning over FS …

2017-08-28, 15:55:40
Reply #186

blank...

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What is the pesimistic version? In 2 years Corona will be gone

No, it won't be gone. It'll just get jammed into V-ray (which will get another 7 tabs with 84 roll-outs) and be sold as part of it - "(un)biased mode".
All with appropriate "teams have decided that this is the best move, all that you love is now under one roof, better then ever, working together to bring the best rendering engine to you, the artist" sales pitch.

Mark my words! :laughs ominously:

2017-08-28, 19:02:13
Reply #187

zuliban

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Hopefully now i can have buckets back in corona ;)

Since all the negative part have been discussed already, i read from Vlado that vray is old and corona is of course newer, does creating right now a newer engine means any new technology?  that is not path tracing ? maybe something new that can handle caustics in a better way?

i have seen other renders like Arion that have its inhouse brdf and have DOf that still others renders don't have, with obstruction and CA from far and front and small iris overlay for stuff like eyelashes i would like these kinds of stuff in the future for both renders !.

it would be nice too to have real camera tone mapping response operators and not only using luts to mimic it.

Also i imagine in like 2 years both renders will appear the same since both will be sharing stuff ... so the question why stay as 2 when you can create a new render instead of 2 that practically will be the same?


2017-08-28, 19:04:56
Reply #188

olotl

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I own a private licence to support corona and I also use it at work. If the price stays the same and the software development continues with this impressive speed, there is really no reason for me to switch. I guess most users forget that chaosgroup is not autodesk.

2017-08-28, 19:12:35
Reply #189

JGallagher

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Congratulations Corona team! Finger's crossed that everything goes as smoothly as planned.

2017-08-28, 19:14:25
Reply #190

h4018401

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Ondra, use all the extra resources you can get from ChaosGroup to make Corona better.
Vlado, don't transform Corona to Vray, no one wants to see ''advanced'' and ''expert'' tabs anymore.
« Last Edit: 2017-08-28, 19:18:42 by h4018401 »

2017-08-28, 19:22:24
Reply #191

spadestick

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If the Chaos Group guys say to you in a year, we want to mothball Corona, what's your recourse? Is their say final?

This depends how tight Legion's agreement with Chaos Group is.

"Chaos" - How very apt. Settings are a mess.

Would be nice to know more details - like does Vray Devt have full access to Corona's secret path-tracing algorithms?

Because if they do - we're prepared to see a souped up Vray using pure or tweaked Corona algos which will make Vray totally outshine everything else on the market. Won't be long before the Autodesk bought Arnold devt team starts eyeing the Corona algo embedded within the beefed up Vray, to the tune of whatever Chaos asks $$$$$$$$ for in return. Next thing you know, Autodesk starts suing the entire original team at Corona for stealing their code. You have to love the lawyers... beautiful creatures.



2017-08-28, 21:25:28
Reply #192

Ludvik Koutny

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2017-08-28, 21:34:23
Reply #193

rambambulli

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I don't know I happy or said. I never hated Vray. I was too stupid to use it. For wannabees like me, Corona is perfect.
For the first time we also (or at least we thought) could make renders like Peter, Bertrand and Juraj.

We also could render. And now we are afraid we go back to being noobs again.

The Corona team never lets us down. Vlado creates beautiful software. So what can go wrong?

That they team up and make a better modeling software as Max (and please let us dump Autodesk asap)? Or they start making light baker plugins for Unreal and Unity. Or ...?

Come on guys, give this team chance!!
Congratulations Corona and Vlado. Good luck in the future...

2017-08-28, 22:25:54
Reply #194

indexofrefraction

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i dont see the power of corona just in having simpler settings.
for me it is also seems to be developed very professionally.
this is sadly not the case with a lot! of renderers out there, and then you're walking on crutches all the time!
if you have complicated projects and workflows you depend on good and well integrated concepts.